Is BTAS really the greatest thing since Sliced-Bat-Bread?

[MatthewP]

time and time again, i’ve seen a lot of people ‘round the net butter up BTAS a little too much; like i know the show is great, but like, woo-ha

ngl i've been recently waning in and out thru the series thru episodes cut into chunks, video essays, etc. and i noticed while the series is mostly great thru-and-thru, some of the villains featured aren't given their due (penguin, riddler, and hugo strange come to mind) there's some jarring animation mistakes here and there (joker's raccoon eyes) and there are times where it feels like it's not 100% the creator-driven masterpiece the internet says it is (it's more 60% creators, 25% BS&P stuff, and 15% WB horizontal marketing)

which leads to the Q: is BTAS really as great as the internet says it is? or has everyone got their rose-tinted-goggles on too tight? and for that matter, are there any characters subsequent* batman shows/comics/whatever did better than BTAS?

(for that matter, am i gonna die for this?)

*(TNBA counts as a subsequent series if ya rly wanna get nitpicky BTW)

 

[Pooky]

I think a lot of your points are fair, but

i've been recently waning in and out thru the series thru episodes cut into chunks, video essays, etc.

isn't really the way to evaluate this series, or any series really.

 

[MatthewP]

ye someday i might buckle down an’ watch the whole thing

 

[Yojimbo]

Hard to say. Objectively, it was a great series. Subjectively in the present, it depends on the individual. Or "greatest"? How can we say that, time goes on. Maybe the "greatest" Batman show has yet to happen. For me, I was a child when it aired on television in 1992. I was hooked. Even as a child, I thought Batman on Super Friends and the Scooby-Doo shows were kinda corny but when BTAS aired, mind blown. When The Batman was airing I didn't watch it, wasn't interested. Wasn't until around 2009 I bought the DVDs and watched it all, my opinion on it changed but it was mixed. The Brave and The Bold came around, I got the press kit, mind blown. Starting to realize Batman is a malleable character and with the right people steering the ship, he can be reinterpreted so many ways. Beware The Batman came out and was so cool with its small tight cast but I was bummed at it being marathoned to its end.

To put it to a musical analogy, Pre-BTAS stuff was like listening to the Beatles. Just not my bag. BTAS was like my KISS. It was something that looked new and never done but at its core had the classic elements of Batman/rock. The Batman kinda like Nine Inch Nails, early seasons were Downward Spiral good but then towards the end verged into Pretty Hate Machine territory. The Brave and The Bold was like listening to Elvis, ABBA, Fleetwood Mac with a new love and appreciation for. Beware was like idk Christmas Island by Depeche Mode. Different spins but all the greatest thing in their own ways.

But for someone to try and get into BTAS now for the first time. It would be a different experience. You had so much much more content you digested as you grew up and so many different avenues - more channels, streaming services, youtube reviews, blog reviews, etc. to influence your opinion. I'd say stop watching that stuff until you forget it all, then do a binge watch of the series.

 

[-batmat-]

I think what's most important to remember about why BTAS is so highly regarded, is context. To continue the musical metaphors, if you show The Beatles to a 10 year old kid today, they might think it's fine at best, but probably won't be shocked about it. But if you listened to The Beatles at their time, the impact they had was huge. (btw @Yojimbo , I'd take The Beatles over KISS any day of the week )

BTAS changed everything in people's minds about what a "saturday morning" cartoon could be.

So yeah sure, there's some lesser episodes, and if you watch it for the first time today, the impact may not be the same (though this can be argued, since BTAS holds up amazingly well with its hand drawn animation, real orchestral music, mature storylines and superb voice acting!) but it's still a damn good cartoon!

But what my point is, BTAS was not only great, it was also IMPORTANT. I think that's a big reason why it's highly regarded.

Someone can probably word this better but I think my point comes across!

 

[BigFatHairyDeal]

Consider selection bias: you're more likely to get a video essay about the show from someone who thinks it's fantastic (or even someone who fervently hates it) than someone who thinks the show is just alright.

 

[Fone Bone]

I like judging the work for myself.

 

[Ed Nygma]

Forgive what turned into rambling personal thoughts, but your topic provoked thought in me and I wanted to give it my fullest answer...

I slightly agree in the sense that I think it's been overrated by people on YouTube who are repeating a narrative, in order to seem like part of the in-crowd rather than how they'd feel if they viewed it in a bubble (The same narrative like when people convinced themselves X3 and Spider-Man 3 were objectively the worst movies ever made). It's impossible for me to divorce it from the time and place in which it aired; the context is everything and that specific early 90s mini movie feel (that Animaniacs also had) about human drama is what I love. It taught me so much about superheroes, three act structure, cinema, animation and what it means to be an adult human that words almost fail me.

What I do think is that there's often way too much talk about how 'important' it was instead of just enjoying it for what it was, an adventure cartoon that didn't nor should it change the world or anything. Episodes like Two Face part 1 or Feat of Clay pt 2 are still masterpieces imo in animation, so it holds up in that regard. But I do see your point, especially when people say how Mask of the Phantasm is the best Batman movie. The story is outstanding and it *could have* been, but the rushed runtime and choppy animation hold it back. People choose to overlook it and that's okay.

At the same time, I remember being profoundly disturbed and moved as a kid at how Andrea destroyed her life and happiness for revenge, so damaged was she by trauma. That stuck with me and that has to indicate there was some power in the words and images on screen. The meaning has changed for me over the years, to the point where I identified with it when I felt alone as an edgelord teen, to now that I'm coming out of my own darkness a bit, I finally understand what Bruce meant when he said, "I didn't count on being happy."

In the eyes of fandom just as Spider-Man '94 can seemingly do no right, BTAS can do no wrong, but I think the truth is more subjective. There were some clunkers but the highs were higher than pretty much any other superhero cartoon, and it means the world to me for the memories and safe space it occupies in my mind. It's impossible for me to be objective about it anymore, so ingrained is it in my being, and I tend to think other people have similar views where the DCAU almost defies description for what it means even on a subconscious level. I would never deny anyone their enjoyment or lack thereof, but I can't imagine first seeing it outside of the time in which I did, and wouldn't trade that for anything.

Where I do think BTAS deserves every bit of praise is in that it truly is the best version of Batman and the characters; everyone was note perfect. For example, I agree the Riddler was done dirty in the show and it still makes me wince how few episodes he had. But my fault is in his airtime, not how they portrayed him. Like pretty much every other character on the show, he has a fantastic design, a perfect voice actor, and dead-on characterization; I know exactly what DCAU Nygma- or any other of the villains- would say or do even all these years later, and that is an unmatched feat in any adaptation. I certainly can't say that about the Shocker from Spider-Man.

I didn't have the happiest childhood so the show was a comfort- always there at 4:30 on Fox- and in some ways animated Batman showed me what it meant to be a man, with the moral compass all humans should strive towards. I don't get that from the nutcase comic version or the films, just this unwavering cartoon hero who does what's right for the sake of it no matter how futile, as we watch the chronicle of a man's entire life to old age. Should the show itself be praised for it, or Kevin Conroy, or the writers, or the animators? I think it's a little of all of the above; for if nothing else the biggest thing I learned from the show is that we exist in shades of gray, no one is all good or bad, life is a complicated little mixture of both

 

[MatthewP]

i read this whole reply in John glover’s voice and I don’t regret it

 

[Revelator]

BTAS was the first great superhero cartoon (the Flesicher Superman shorts had great animation but simplistic stories) and the first great action cartoon created for American television. Just as Citizen Kane has been copied by many films but remains great for being ahead of its time, and for being fresher at the time of its release than its later epigones could ever be, the same goes for BTAS.

Did the show have its flaws? Of course. Varying animation on a TV-budget. Not every major villain was given their due. And several episodes turned out mediocre because of the show's first script editor (before Alan Burnett came on board and righted the ship). But greatness isn't the same as perfection.

Fine as the some of the later Batman shows are, I don't think that as cumulative achievements they compare to BTAS. Moreover, they walk in the path trailblazed by BTAS. And while later Timm-productions like JLU might have more sophisticated storylines and more consistent episode quality, they're still offshoots from BTAS.

To revise Yoiimbo's musical metaphor, I view BTAS's impact on superhero/adventure cartoons as comparable to that of Elvis and the Beatles. They ended periods of staid conformity and stagnation and started revolutions in their art form, just as BTAS did. After decades of televisual animated crap, especially in the realm of superheroes, here was something with the vitality of "Jailhouse Rock" and ambition of Revolver. The divide between what came before BTAS and what came after is as great as the divide between what music sounded like before and after rock'n'roll.

 

[Otaku-sempai]

I would say that Jonny Quest is a better candidate for the first great action cartoon created for an American viewership. It beats B:TAS by a good three decades!

 

[CyberCubed]

Let's put it this way, we've had several Batman cartoons since and none of them have been more popular or better than B:TAS. Although Brave and the Bold was great, it wasn't really a traditional Batman show so I can't really count it.

We'll see if Bruce Timm manages to surpass B:TAS with his upcoming Batman cartoon. Its been 30 years, so we'll see.

 

[ABrown]

It's in my list of top 10 animated shows of all time, and is my favorite version of the character. But it's not the only animated version that I've enjoyed. The DC shared universe movies version voiced by Jason Omara is actually fairly close for me. And the Batman: Brave and the Bold version was a lot fun.

 

[Neo Ultra Mike]

I would say that Jonny Quest is a better candidate for the first great action cartoon created for an American viewership. It beats B:TAS by a good three decades!

As Revelator pointed out, you need more then simply looking good to be considered a great action cartoon. Not to mention that though design wise Johnny Quest looked really interesting... it had very limited hanna barbera 60's animation so unlike the Fleisher cartoons it wasn't really that compelling in motion. Like at the time for TV animation sure but not now. Plus yeah, the characters and stories still weren't really there either to consider it overall a pure great action cartoon.

You could probably argue cartoons in the 80's like Transformers were the first general solid in all feel action cartoons who had more solid stories as well as the action and characters that would keep kids interested but yeah stuff like X-Men the animated series and obviously BTAS were really the first to really hit a level beyond just "being good for a merchandise based cartoon" and really showcase something special. And though we have had better Batman cartoons with superior fight scenes/animation, better representation of not just the Batman mythos but how he fits in with the rest of the DCEU as well as ones with more expansive stories and more mature themes, I don't think any has fully captured the magic or really been the full complete package superior to BTAS. I know we'll get there one day (IMHO My Adventures with Superman at the rate it's going will easily surpass STAS as the best animated superman show if it's season 2 lives up to it's season one) but that day hasn't happened yet.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

If you make a television series, ANY television series, and at least a third of the episodes are good, that's a good television series. I'd say at least 70% of BTAS' episodes are good, and around 30% of that chunk are great.

So what if the show never had a Penguin episode that was one of the all-time greats? The overall show is excellent and got through its growing pains REALLY quickly.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

If you make a television series, ANY television series, and at least a third of the episodes are good, that's a good television series. I'd say at least 70% of BTAS' episodes are good, and around 30% of that chunk are great.

So what if the show never had a Penguin episode that was one of the all-time greats? The overall show is excellent and got through its growing pains REALLY quickly.

I do love 'Birds of a Feather' though.

 

[Otaku-sempai]

As Revelator pointed out, you need more then simply looking good to be considered a great action cartoon. Not to mention that though design wise Johnny Quest looked really interesting... it had very limited hanna barbera 60's animation so unlike the Fleisher cartoons it wasn't really that compelling in motion. Like at the time for TV animation sure but not now. Plus yeah, the characters and stories still weren't really there either to consider it overall a pure great action cartoon.

You could probably argue cartoons in the 80's like Transformers were the first general solid in all feel action cartoons who had more solid stories as well as the action and characters that would keep kids interested but yeah stuff like X-Men the animated series and obviously BTAS were really the first to really hit a level beyond just "being good for a merchandise based cartoon" and really showcase something special. And though we have had better Batman cartoons with superior fight scenes/animation, better representation of not just the Batman mythos but how he fits in with the rest of the DCEU as well as ones with more expansive stories and more mature themes, I don't think any has fully captured the magic or really been the full complete package superior to BTAS. I know we'll get there one day (IMHO My Adventures with Superman at the rate it's going will easily surpass STAS as the best animated superman show if it's season 2 lives up to it's season one) but that day hasn't happened yet.

Name any animated series for television (including B:TAS) that didn't have limited animation. That's hardly a disqualifier! If you want to argue that Jonny Quest lacked interesting characters, well, I guess that's a subjective opinion. Certainly there are elements that haven't aged well. However, I suggest that we have to keep Jonny Quest in its historical context in order to judge it fairly.

Yes, B:TAS is one of the great action/adventure animated shows, but to say that it is the first great animated action series for an American viewership is to ignore the history of American animation for television.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I do love 'Birds of a Feather' though.

It's the best out of a not too great group of selections. Honestly, most of the Penguin episodes are fine. I'd say "Birds of the Feather" rises to the level of "pretty good."

 

[Revelator]

Name any animated series for television (including B:TAS) that didn't have limited animation. That's hardly a disqualifier! If you want to argue that Jonny Quest lacked interesting characters, well, I guess that's a subjective opinion. Certainly there are elements that haven't aged well. However, I suggest that we have to keep Jonny Quest in its historical context in order to judge it fairly.

Yes, B:TAS is one of the great action/adventure animated shows, but to say that it is the first great animated action series for an American viewership is to ignore the history of American animation for television.

I think everyone can agree that the animation for Jonny Quest was a good deal more limited than that of BTAS--the same applies any made-for-TV cartoons of the 1960s and '70s. One can admire these shows for their concepts and characters, but not for their animation. The tragedy of that period is that lots of good writers and artists (starting with Alex Toth) were employed in TV animation, but the budgets, producers, censors and resources were simply inadequate.

What turned the tide was Disney seriously committing its money and prestige to weekday afternoon cartoons in the late 80s, with shows like Gummy Bears and Duck Tales, and then Warner Brothers followed suit with Tiny Toons and Animaniacs, followed by the crowning achievement of BTAS. These shows had better animation, bigger budgets, more sympathetic producers, and less censorship than any cartoons previously made for TV, so the circumstances were finally right for the action/adventure cartoon to reach greater heights with BTAS.

 

[Ed Nygma]

If you make a television series, ANY television series, and at least a third of the episodes are good, that's a good television series. I'd say at least 70% of BTAS' episodes are good, and around 30% of that chunk are great.

So what if the show never had a Penguin episode that was one of the all-time greats? The overall show is excellent and got through its growing pains REALLY quickly.

I think the 70% to 30% bad ratio is probably fair. However, where I think the show deserves a demerit is for what it didn't do rather than what it tried to do. If they really went for it and tried to do Penguin or Riddler or Robin more definitively and fell on their face, they'd deserve an A for effort. But they sidelined them in favor of incessant Harley Quinn and Joker appearances, particularly in TNBA, and I think something like that is a valid criticism. That being said I do think Penguin was in the show just the right amount, but Harley was so unnaturally pushed at the expense of other characters that I became sick of her by even 1999. Did we *really* need that much Poison Ivy as compared to say Man-Bat? I dunno.

I would still probably rate BTAS as the best superhero cartoon ever. It isn't that I think it should be knocked off its pedestal by any means, but I do think Spider-Man TAS had a similar success ratio for what it was, and it's unfairly maligned/forgotten in comparison. People seem to begin or end at whether they like the whole vibe of a show and then forgive lapses in the individual episodes, but it's fair for some like OP to not give it overpraise as a result.