"Batman: Caped Crusader" Season One Talkback (Spoilers)

[Revelator]

Episode 8 Nocturne

Interesting exercise in what Batman would do with a villain that was a child. Great stuff. In the end he shows her compassion instead of leaving her to die in the sunlight. Nice to see gradually we see a bit more of an empathetic Batman.

To be honest, Batman's behavior was pretty much predictable. It might have been more interesting to have made Nocturna such an energy junkie that she ended up killing some of those kids--that would have made Batman's ethical decision harder for him to make, and would have given it greater weight. In any case, I found Nocturna a rather ho-hum villainess, especially next to full-grown vamp proposed for BTAS.

I know b.t. said the first-season writers couldn't get that version of the character to work, but maybe it would have been wiser to have postponed using the character then. If the show can have full-fledged ghosts then it could have had an episode with a vampire Batman (just as the Golden Age comics featured a vampire-werewolf like the Monk). And the show could have used a really alluring but sinister femme fatale (Catwoman is great fun but not sinister). That said, Nocturna wasn't originally a vampire in the comics; that distinction belongs to Dala (also the first female villain in Batman comics), and she could easily step into the sinister vamp/femme fatale role if the show is still interested in such a character.

 

[Frontier]

Yeah see that's the problem, this show is trying to be "grounded" and serious so a character like Onomatopoeia who's entire existence is to be a meta joke about the nature of comics doesn't make sense to be here.
And he's portrayed as nothing more than a slightly above average bad guy, so he brought nothing new or interesting to the show in terms of threat level or challeng

I mean, it's grounded and serious to a point.

In the first few episodes alone we had a cruise ship with a giant cannon on-top of it, a serial killer actor with a transforming face, and screwball comedy antics with Catwoman.

So I think adapting a quirky and colorful like character into Caped Crusader as a quirky and colorful hitman worked. Gotham takes all types .

To be honest, Batman's behavior was pretty much predictable. It might have been more interesting to have made Nocturna such an energy junkie that she ended up killing some of those kids--that would have made Batman's ethical decision harder for him to make, and would have given it greater weight. In any case, I found Nocturna a rather ho-hum villainess, especially next to full-grown vamp proposed for BTAS.

I know b.t. said the first-season writers couldn't get that version of the character to work, but maybe it would have been wiser to have postponed using the character then. If the show can have full-fledged ghosts then it could have had an episode with a vampire Batman (just as the Golden Age comics featured a vampire-werewolf like the Monk). And the show could have used a really alluring but sinister femme fatale (Catwoman is great fun but not sinister). That said, Nocturna wasn't originally a vampire in the comics; that distinction belongs to Dala (also the first female villain in Batman comics), and she could easily step into the sinister vamp/femme fatale role if the show is still interested in such a character.

I feel like if you had her actually kill some of the kids it would kind of take the ethical decision out of it because she'd probably have to die by then because she would be past the point of no return. I think it made sense to at least keep her hands relatively clean aside from her own brother so the only thing that was lost was the only thing she actually cared about and made her realize how far she had gone.

Personally I would be fine with a more comic-accurate Nocturna myself...though if they want a straight up Femme Fatale we could get Poison Ivy in season 2 or a more capable Catwoman who can really string Batman along compared to her season 1 self.

 

[Last Spider]

I mean, it's grounded and serious to a point.

In the first few episodes alone we had a cruise ship with a giant cannon on-top of it, a serial killer actor with a transforming face, and screwball comedy antics with Catwoman.

So I think adapting a quirky and colorful like character into Caped Crusader as a quirky and colorful hitman worked. Gotham takes all types .

If he was quirky and colorful sure.
But he's not, as far as the show depicts Onomatopoeia, he's another generic bad guy, with nothing special to him at all.

 

[Frontier]

If he was quirky and colorful sure.
But he's not, as far as the show depicts Onomatopoeia, he's another generic bad guy, with nothing special to him at all.

Well, the costume, spouting out sound effects even in a fight, a whole legion of well-dressed goons...that's quirky and colorful to me .

 

[Last Spider]

Well, the costume, spouting out sound effects even in a fight, a whole legion of well-dressed goons...that's quirky and colorful to me .

And yet he's still just a somewhat above average bad guy compared to the henchmen.
Nothing actually changes if he's a regular guy.

 

[Medinnus]

I appreciate how much erudition all of you are putting into your analysis, even (maybe especially) the points with which I disagree, but my personal take is this - Its fun. Clearly, the writing team is enjoying themselves and doing excellent work, and it shows. There is a lot of thought and effort, reflected in every aspect, and frankly, its a refreshing change from the, for example, Jeph Loeb era of Marvel animation, which had some talented writers just going through the motions and "phoning it in" for the paycheck.

 

[Palin Dromos]

And yet he's still just a somewhat above average bad guy compared to the henchmen.
Nothing actually changes if he's a regular guy.

Onomatopoeia is not the point of that episode though. The real focus of that episode is the hit on Gordon and the corruption within the GCPD. A flashier assassin like Deathstroke or Shiva would have distracted from the core of what the episode was wanting to focus on.
Also he was sent after Gordon, not Batman, so an above average bad guy is all that was required.
He felt like a Dick Tracy villain in this and that seems right on point for the vibe of the episode and the level of threat he needed to be.
His lack of clear dialog also adds to the uncertainty in the episode, allowing for effective misdirection.

 

[Last Spider]

Onomatopoeia is not the point of that episode though. The real focus of that episode is the hit on Gordon and the corruption within the GCPD. A flashier assassin like Deathstroke or Shiva would have distracted from the core of what the episode was wanting to focus on.
Also he was sent after Gordon, not Batman, so an above average bad guy is all that was required.
He felt like a Dick Tracy villain in this and that seems right on point for the vibe of the episode and the level of threat he needed to be.
His lack of clear dialog also adds to the uncertainty in the episode, allowing for effective misdirection.

See if they weren't going to use a character that's interesting or try to make him interesting then they just shouldn't have used him in the show at all.
There's a thousand generic bad guys with guns in Batman comics they could've used, but they use a Green Arrow villain who's whole thing doesn't work in this medium, not for this show anyway.
They could've just used Deadshot instead instead of having him be the guy who gets shot at the start of the episode.

 

[Millicay]

See if they weren't going to use a character that's interesting or try to make him interesting then they just shouldn't have used him in the show at all.
There's a thousand generic bad guys with guns in Batman comics they could've used, but they use a Green Arrow villain who's whole thing doesn't work in this medium, not for this show anyway.
They could've just used Deadshot instead instead of having him be the guy who gets shot at the start of the episode.

I was gonna respond, but I feel like this is going nowhere. You think Onomatopeia didn't work in the episode, some of us think it did. We're not gonna convince you that it was a good adaptation any more than you can convince me I didn't have fun watching the episode, because as said above your mileage may vary, and that's ok.

If there's any other topic you'd like to contribute, great, I'd just suggest moving on from Onomatopeia because this feels like it's going in circles.

 

[Last Spider]

It's nice to have it constantly hammered in that thinking this show isn't perfect and can be criticized isn't allowed here and any thoughts to the contrary just get shut down.

 

[Millicay]

It's nice to have it constantly hammered in that thinking this show isn't perfect and can be criticized isn't allowed here and any thoughts to the contrary just get shut down.

Not my intention, your opinion is completely valid, I probably dislike some things from the show that you like, but at this point it doesn't feel like anyone is gonna get anywhere by just repeating the same thing. Feel free to keep discussing it if you must, I'm not your dad.

 

[Last Spider]

That would be convincing if this wasn't the second time, a criticism was brought up just to be told "No it's good actually", and then told to stop talking about it when I defend my position.
What is even the point in having these forums then? Is everything just supposed to be an echo box of the majority opinion?

 

[PicardMan]

Personally, I kind of prefer Batman: The Animated Series take on the rogues as sympathetic tortured souls with complex psychological issues. Wasn't a fan of this Harvey Dent being a huge jerk pre-villainification. I know some people have believed that approach for Batman villains is overdone and prefer a traditional "black hat" unsympathetic bad guy with a capital B, but I would have liked to see more of the former. I know Nocturna is one of the examples of the former, and her episode was one of the better ones. I kinda found more emotional investment in BTAS than this series, but it wasn't necessarily bad. Just my opinion on the handling of the villains.

 

[Yojimbo]

Some of the villains were a miss for me (I still have the final 2 episodes to watch) but a lot I enjoyed. Onomatopoeia was the least favorite of mine but his lack of screen time could have been a contributing factor. It felt like they were trying to convey that his way of talking was initially throwing Batman off in their fight. It's not exactly banter but he kind of got into Batman's head compared to his other fights this season but due to how brief the fight was, Batman sorta instantly adapts and takes out his windpipe, and after that he's a standard baddie Batman has no problem with knocking out. I could have done with the Batman '66 SFX nods in his one line - that felt cliche. Took me out of it. Yeah, I'm not convinced either that we needed a name DC character as the head of this out of town hitman team. Harley Quinn, I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around this version. While on the other hand, totally loved their take on Clayface and Gentleman Ghost. I'm on the fence with Natalia. Penguin was all right, totally got she had some elements of Ma Barker, Ma Fratelli and the like. Catwoman and Greta were hilarious. Hat tip to whoever thought to have Flass and Bullock recur through the season and sort be this show's Rosencrantz and Guildenstern.

Carnies were being a bunch of jerks but Bruce kicking through the Hall of Mirrors didn't do any favors. It was a classic case of Bruce not saying it the right way in his haste and his patented Bruce Wayne charm not working on the carnies. Maybe if he emphasized it was an emergency, heard a girl being attacked then it wouldn't have been as misconstrued. Another element I thought would have addressed was if the rest of the carnies knew about or at least suspected Anton and Natalia were up to something since presumably in every city they visit, children go missing (but are found and don't rat out Natalia for some reason?) and it stopped being a coincidence to them. (Then again, the implications from Anton seem to be that they covered it up pretty well and things came to a head here in Gotham) But nah, just ends with Batman choking Waylon for info. Of course, there had to be enough time for the B plot of Dent growing a conscience.

To be honest, Batman's behavior was pretty much predictable. It might have been more interesting to have made Nocturna such an energy junkie that she ended up killing some of those kids--that would have made Batman's ethical decision harder for him to make, and would have given it greater weight. In any case, I found Nocturna a rather ho-hum villainess, especially next to full-grown vamp proposed for BTAS.

I know b.t. said the first-season writers couldn't get that version of the character to work, but maybe it would have been wiser to have postponed using the character then. If the show can have full-fledged ghosts then it could have had an episode with a vampire Batman (just as the Golden Age comics featured a vampire-werewolf like the Monk). And the show could have used a really alluring but sinister femme fatale (Catwoman is great fun but not sinister). That said, Nocturna wasn't originally a vampire in the comics; that distinction belongs to Dala (also the first female villain in Batman comics), and she could easily step into the sinister vamp/femme fatale role if the show is still interested in such a character.

True, from another viewpoint, you could argue Batman only saved Natalia so that she could be held accountable for her crimes though not sure how old she was supposed to be. I guess if the DA's office takes the nature of the crime into account, they might move to try her as an adult even if she's in her teens but I digress.

Would be interesting to see Vampire Batman again after he showed up on The Brave and The Bold and of course the version of Batman from Gods and Monsters but I'm not sold on that next appearance being on this show.

I could see Mad Monk and Dala showing up in an episode or two but it'd interesting if Caped Crusader got a movie on Prime greenlit, that's one story they could adapt.

 

[PicardMan]

Surprised that nobody mentioned this, but the Gentleman Ghost episode seemed like it was created specifically to rebut a certain interpretation of Batman as a character. Some people characterize Batman as a rich elite who oppresses and beats up the poor for his own sadistic desires. The Gentleman Ghost seemed like he was written as the manifestation of that interpretation of Batman and as an adversary to compete with the actual Batman's ideals. I don't know if that was the writer intention or just coincidence, but it felt like that episode was a rebuttal to the idea that Batman is an enemy of the poor.

 

[Frontier]

Personally, I kind of prefer Batman: The Animated Series take on the rogues as sympathetic tortured souls with complex psychological issues. Wasn't a fan of this Harvey Dent being a huge jerk pre-villainification. I know some people have believed that approach for Batman villains is overdone and prefer a traditional "black hat" unsympathetic bad guy with a capital B, but I would have liked to see more of the former. I know Nocturna is one of the examples of the former, and her episode was one of the better ones. I kinda found more emotional investment in BTAS than this series, but it wasn't necessarily bad. Just my opinion on the handling of the villains.

I feel like this take on Harvey was meant to double down on him being a smarmy jerk who nobody really liked so they could go for a different interpretation of him as Two-Face where he goes kind of crazy but he's also more empathetic rather than the other way around and people are left questioning whether Harvey is worth saving or what kind of man he really is deep down.

So I think the wanted to make the Two-Face duality and his character a little more complicated than usual...though you can be forgiven for not really caring about Harvey at all (even most of the cast didn't seem to until the very end). One could argue sometimes something more straightforward is more effective.

Some of the villains were a miss for me (I still have the final 2 episodes to watch) but a lot I enjoyed. Onomatopoeia was the least favorite of mine but his lack of screen time could have been a contributing factor. It felt like they were trying to convey that his way of talking was initially throwing Batman off in their fight. It's not exactly banter but he kind of got into Batman's head compared to his other fights this season but due to how brief the fight was, Batman sorta instantly adapts and takes out his windpipe, and after that he's a standard baddie Batman has no problem with knocking out. I could have done with the Batman '66 SFX nods in his one line - that felt cliche. Took me out of it. Yeah, I'm not convinced either that we needed a name DC character as the head of this out of town hitman team. Harley Quinn, I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around this version. While on the other hand, totally loved their take on Clayface and Gentleman Ghost. I'm on the fence with Natalia. Penguin was all right, totally got she had some elements of Ma Barker, Ma Fratelli and the like. Catwoman and Greta were hilarious. Hat tip to whoever thought to have Flass and Bullock recur through the season and sort be this show's Rosencrantz and Guildenstern.

I actually liked that Bruce got into the Batman '66 fun, it shows he's not completely humorless .

I feel like with this version of Harley...whether or not you can accept that she's so different and her entire MO feels like it belongs to a different character (Hugo Strange, anyone?), they just really didn't dive that deep into her character, her motivations, and even the fallout of her actions for it to really work as well as it could have in my opinion. I know the relationship with Renee was meant to humanize both her and Renee but I wonder if they could have cut that out and focused more on her background or Barbara's investigation into her if it would've improved her episode. Or they're saving it for season 2 .

I thought Catwoman was a lot of fun and her episode was one of my favorites. I think the creators made the right call going against the grain instead of doing another serious Catwoman and letting her episode be the closest to a pure romp of the entire season. Though to play devil's advocate I've seen criticisms that they played her episode so much for humor and zaniness that their version of Selina came off more like a "joke" and inconsequential in the series. She even ends up a punchline in her own episode and basically a one-off who isn't relevant again beyond how Batman's method of capturing her lead to the events of "Night of the Hunters." Even the thing she's most known for in the franchise, being one of the only people on the wrong side of the law who can seduce Batman, is depicted as useless against this Batman (unless you really read between the lines of his reactions to her).

Though conversely I feel in watching her development in her episode that she has a lot of potential to grow, potential she displayed over the course of "Kiss of the Catwoman," and it's something I hope the creators capitalize on in season 2. If her introduction was a Screwball Comedy, maybe her next appearance will be a full on romcom with Batman ?

True, from another viewpoint, you could argue Batman only saved Natalia so that she could be held accountable for her crimes though not sure how old she was supposed to be. I guess if the DA's office takes the nature of the crime into account, they might move to try her as an adult even if she's in her teens but I digress.

I think the idea is that she was ultimately a kid who didn't know any better (with maybe a few psychopathic traits) and didn't have full control of her "cravings" so she needs medical help and not a prison cell. So probably Arkham .

 

[Yojimbo]

Episode 9

Mm, a little tension btw Batman and Alfred about methods. Two-Face gets Zito but Thorne gets away.

Dug the callback to Barbara not liking Dent's coin flip idea.

Hat tip to calling that restaurant Utterson's, after the Jekyll & Hyde character Gabriel John Utterson who was the lawyer and friend of Jekyll. (side bar, I think it's only been released in the US on DVD but check out I, Monster - ya got Christopher Lee as Jekyll (well, renamed Marlowe in this movie) and Peter Cushing as Utterson, probably the best Jekyll and Hyde movie ever made).

 

[Frontier]

Episode 9

Mm, a little tension btw Batman and Alfred about methods. Two-Face gets Zito but Thorne gets away.

I think it stands out that we hardly ever see Batman lash out at Alfred like that in general .

Dug the callback to Barbara not liking Dent's coin flip idea.

I'm still kind of bummed they brought in the coin and still barely did anything with it. It's like they had it in there because it's expected that Two-Face would have the coin but it's only plot relevance was a call-back between Barbara and Harvey in the finale. But I guess if they didn't plan on keeping Harvey around there was no sense to using the coin in its traditional context .

 

[Karkull]

I just posted another episode recap, this one for "...And Be a Villain." I just wanted to thank b.t. and everyone for helping me figure out all the Easter Eggs. Enjoy!

 

[Revelator]

Episode 9

Mm, a little tension btw Batman and Alfred about methods. Two-Face gets Zito but Thorne gets away.

....(side bar, I think it's only been released in the US on DVD but check out I, Monster - ya got Christopher Lee as Jekyll (well, renamed Marlowe in this movie) and Peter Cushing as Utterson, probably the best Jekyll and Hyde movie ever made).

The tension between Bruce and Alfred was one of the best parts of the episode. It's always dramatic gold when Batman is forced to face the consequences of his obsessive ruthlessness (as in "Old Wounds") and ask himself whether he's gone too far. And the relationship between Bruce and Alfred was by far the most interesting one in Caped Crusader, the one capable of generating some real suprises.

Incidentally, why wasn't Zito named Moroni? I'll have to check out I Monster--many folks consider Rouben Mamoulian's 1932 Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde as the best film adaptation.