"Harley Quinn" Season Four Talkback (Spoilers)

[Frontier]

I'm guessing if Joker has vacated the position of Mayor, wonder if Bruce's lawyers will use it to get his sentence cummuted to time served. Not that I'm an expert at law.

It was always a bum rap if you ask me .

Coin toss at this point. I think anti-hero would better serve this Harley.

Honestly I haven't been feeling "hero" Harley anything this season.

Harley Quinn "Potato-Based Cloning Incident"

Unpleasant and unfun.

But if they don't use Flash's time treadmill to redo all of this crap I'll be surprised.

In the meantime, I'll call it a bad week. I think the thing that bothers me about the show's nihilistic episodes is it's not always that. Whenever it sucks it is. Whenever it's great, it's weirdly empowering instead. I don't understand the logic of this show deliberately making episodes that suck and work against the good things about the show. Another reason I simply do not understand the mindset of superhero comic creators. *1/2.

Even if they did redo it, Babs would probably just get injured again. Like how Clegg still died.

 

[Neo Ultra Mike]

I think the thing that bothers me about the show's nihilistic episodes is it's not always that. Whenever it sucks it is. Whenever it's great, it's weirdly empowering instead. I don't understand the logic of this show deliberately making episodes that suck and work against the good things about the show. Another reason I simply do not understand the mindset of superhero comic creators. *1/2.

Uh there are episodes with darker/dour endings especially in seasons 3 and 4 because they are telling one giant storyline. HQ does know they need to give the characters a break and have more generally positive and uplifiting endings and not just wait till the end for things to pick up unlike some shows, but the sour endings usually come with a cliffhanger that makes you want to watch how things will resolve. Which is especially true for the episode right before the finale. Honestly I don't find most of this episode overall miserable since half of it is a silly golf romp and even the stuff with Harley is more part of her character journey with yeah some nihlistic bits but the only pure one was the Joker cliffhanger which again something that makes you want to watch the next episode to see how that will truly shake things up.

 

[Fone Bone]

Uh there are episodes with darker/dour endings especially in seasons 3 and 4 because they are telling one giant storyline. HQ does know they need to give the characters a break and have more generally positive and uplifiting endings and not just wait till the end for things to pick up unlike some shows, but the sour endings usually come with a cliffhanger that makes you want to watch how things will resolve. Which is especially true for the episode right before the finale. Honestly I don't find most of this episode overall miserable since half of it is a silly golf romp and even the stuff with Harley is more part of her character journey with yeah some nihlistic bits but the only pure one was the Joker cliffhanger which again something that makes you want to watch the next episode to see how that will truly shake things up.

I don't need WHY the arc is being told the way it is explained to me. I already understand it. I'm saying I disagree with it being told that way. I'm allowed to do that.

 

[Neo Ultra Mike]

I don't need WHY the arc is being told the way it is explained to me. I already understand it. I'm saying I disagree with it being told that way. I'm allowed to do that.

Oh yeah you are fully allowed to disagree with the way the show is being told and not like an episode if you have a problem with it. I only pointed that out because you said ". I don't understand the logic of this show deliberately making episodes that suck and work against the good things about the show. " Granted I guess when this show goes dark with a cliffhanger that needs to be resolved next time it does so in a different more dark/twisted way then say My Adventures With Superman, but there is a reason behind it and I was explaining it because you said you didn't understand the show's logic.

 

[Fone Bone]

Oh yeah you are fully allowed to disagree with the way the show is being told and not like an episode if you have a problem with it. I only pointed that out because you said ". I don't understand the logic of this show deliberately making episodes that suck and work against the good things about the show. " Granted I guess when this show goes dark with a cliffhanger that needs to be resolved next time it does so in a different more dark/twisted way then say My Adventures With Superman, but there is a reason behind it and I was explaining it because you said you didn't understand the show's logic.

I don't understand the logic of why genre tells arcs the way they do. Intellectually I understand what they're going for. I just think they are largely unsuccessful often enough I do question the wisdom of doing it this way.

The Red Wedding on Game Of Thrones was powerful stuff. The problem was the show kept feeling the need to top it every few weeks. Which is both crazy and stupid.

I don't mind the occasional pathos on this show. But it's supposed to be a damn comedy. It shouldn't forget that.

Edit:

I detest the notion of Punishing The Audience. We're not the bad guys. We did nothing wrong. We deserve better.

 

[Frontier]

To be honest ever since the show turned her into a Harley fangirl, they kind of lost me on Batgirl's character.

 

[ABrown]

The Bane episode was fantastic. And I would swear that the old Italian pasta maker lady was based off my great grandmother. Easily my favorite episode of the season.

 

[Neo Ultra Mike]

I don't understand the logic of why genre tells arcs the way they do. Intellectually I understand what they're going for. I just think they are largely unsuccessful often enough I do question the wisdom of doing it this way.

It's likely because they feel if you fully know entirely of what happens then they figure "why are you bothering to even watch it" especially with a TV show. Like movies can thrive more off the spectacle and though having one specific longer time allowing that to build up generally one specific story. Shows though that aren't more sitcom comfort food or general anthology one offs probably feel that building the tension and making things harsher means much more when the adversity is conquered in the end.

The Red Wedding on Game Of Thrones was powerful stuff. The problem was the show kept feeling the need to top it every few weeks. Which is both crazy and stupid.

Again I only really watched the last season but from what I heard of the rest the original idea was that Game of Thrones wanted to be subversive and go against a lot of fantasy tropes as well as trying to build this harsher world showing how quickly death could come even for supposed leads and offer this unique bleakness you didn't really see that way. The problem was not only did they keep having to top just how bleak things got but they also tried pushing the spectacle and twists to a breaking point they weren't made for thus the show collapsing in of itself.

I don't mind the occasional pathos on this show. But it's supposed to be a damn comedy. It shouldn't forget that.

I don't think the show ever forgets that as even this has a lot of humor and jokes in it. But not only is this a show brimmed with dark comedy but they do still want to keep some aspects of the story serious thus will push for a dark beat without needing a joke and IMHO when framed well those usually work. But then again admittedly you see a lot more TV then I do Fone Bone so I could see this especially being an issue getting to you more of these kind of series and frameworks then it does me.

To be honest ever since the show turned her into a Harley fangirl, they kind of lost me on Batgirl's character.

Uh... wasn't like Barbara always a fan/defender of Harley Quinn in this show since she first showed up in season 2? Okay I guess when Harley was chasing her at first she wasn't but yeah Barbara wanted to become friends and vibe with Harleen and Pamela at the end of that episode even BEFORE officially becoming Batgirl and even later in the season was still trying to help out and defend Harley thinking she wasn't really a villain and a good person. That's always been a factor here and it's only amped up more since not only feeling she was proven right about her initial assumption but the fact not having anyone else in the Bat family to really talk to now. Again I get not liking that idea (though to be fair even in the comics Harley and Batgirl have a pretty weird relationship all things considered) but this is a part of the character in this take on the universe and has been for quite awhile.

 

[Fone Bone]

It's likely because they feel if you fully know entirely of what happens then they figure "why are you bothering to even watch it" especially with a TV show. Like movies can thrive more off the spectacle and though having one specific longer time allowing that to build up generally one specific story. Shows though that aren't more sitcom comfort food or general anthology one offs probably feel that building the tension and making things harsher means much more when the adversity is conquered in the end.

I can address this. I have opined elsewhere that I don't mind predictable television. There is something satisfying about watching a story go down the exact way it should. I dispute the kinds of complications you are describing are unpredictable however. The difference for me is they are predictable in a different, worse way. Instead of the story going down in a satisfying way, the way it should, it goes down with needless complications, padding, and unasked for tragedy the way everything else currently does. Jerking people around and beating around the bush to do everything in the show's power to not actually tell the story isn't unpredictable, it's freaking common. I will argue if you wanna shock the audience and give 'em something they don't expect, show good things happening and make various twists and curveballs things the audience loves instead of dreads. Actually pay things off, have arcs have satisfying endings, and leave things off on a good narrative moment. Justice League Unlimited had this gift and so did Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. I like television that allows me to enjoy it. And lets me think back on it fondly in hindsight.

 

[Frontier]

Uh... wasn't like Barbara always a fan/defender of Harley Quinn in this show since she first showed up in season 2? Okay I guess when Harley was chasing her at first she wasn't but yeah Barbara wanted to become friends and vibe with Harleen and Pamela at the end of that episode even BEFORE officially becoming Batgirl and even later in the season was still trying to help out and defend Harley thinking she wasn't really a villain and a good person. That's always been a factor here and it's only amped up more since not only feeling she was proven right about her initial assumption but the fact not having anyone else in the Bat family to really talk to now. Again I get not liking that idea (though to be fair even in the comics Harley and Batgirl have a pretty weird relationship all things considered) but this is a part of the character in this take on the universe and has been for quite awhile.

Yeah, and it's always been dumb because Harley's never really deserved it and it was mostly Babs just reading what she wanted to out of Harley's antics even when they were wrong.

If you read past season threads I've been complaining about it since season 2 .

 

[Neo Ultra Mike]

I will argue if you wanna shock the audience and give 'em something they don't expect, show good things happening and make various twists and curveballs things the audience loves instead of dreads. Actually pay things off, have arcs have satisfying endings, and leave things off on a good narrative moment. Justice League Unlimited had this gift and so did Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. I like television that allows me to enjoy it. And lets me think back on it fondly in hindsight.

Okay I can't speak to Deep Space Nine that much but I am a huge fan of JLU as well and yeah they did have a lot of uplifiting and generally positive endings but they still had stingers and cliffhangers that left off on an intentionally uneasy note that weren't really happy or satisfying. You know Batman watching Lex Luthor's presidental campaign ramp up in "The Doomsday Sanction" Green Lantern and martian Manhunter unsure if they can trust their staff anymore in the epilogue of "Task Force X", Captain Marvel quitting the Justice League due to it failing to properly stand for the ideals of justice with Amanda Waller and Lex Luthor celebrating making Superman look like a fool in "Clash". Heck the four part season finale's first three part have big shocking and "oh man you have to watch what happens next you didn't see that coming" smashes in a row, especially the reveal of Brianac's face in Luthor that book marked "Panic In The Sky". I mean those are all kind of curveballs that build dread and has you more wondering what's going to happen next.

A big difference between Harley Quinn and JLU I guess is JLU could have much more standalone episodes and due to the rotating cast you have more general rotation of who was getting focus but honestly I still think most of the episodes of season 4 have balanced out pretty well. Yeah some I'm not fans of but most work for me and I have faith in them pulling off a good finale for the season whatever it will be.

Yeah, and it's always been dumb because Harley's never really deserved it and it was mostly Babs just reading what she wanted to out of Harley's antics even when they were wrong.

If you read past season threads I've been complaining about it since season 2 .

I have read, but this just felt like a weird thing to bring up but yeah I'm guessing the point was "even during this tragic moment where she's shot and possibly killed can't really care about her due to not liking this take on her character" which eh fair enough.

 

[Fone Bone]

Okay I can't speak to Deep Space Nine that much but I am a huge fan of JLU as well and yeah they did have a lot of uplifiting and generally positive endings but they still had stingers and cliffhangers that left off on an intentionally uneasy note that weren't really happy or satisfying. You know Batman watching Lex Luthor's presidental campaign ramp up in "The Doomsday Sanction" Green Lantern and martian Manhunter unsure if they can trust their staff anymore in the epilogue of "Task Force X", Captain Marvel quitting the Justice League due to it failing to properly stand for the ideals of justice with Amanda Waller and Lex Luthor celebrating making Superman look like a fool in "Clash". Heck the four part season finale's first three part have big shocking and "oh man you have to watch what happens next you didn't see that coming" smashes in a row, especially the reveal of Brianac's face in Luthor that book marked "Panic In The Sky". I mean those are all kind of curveballs that build dread and has you more wondering what's going to happen next.

I disagree those endings you mentioned filled you with dread. The "Brainiac!" thing filled me with evil joy and excitement for the next week. Also should point out I don't object to sad and unsettling endings in and of themselves. It depends on how it's handled. JLU always walked the tightrope between exciting / worrying the viewer and bumming them out / pissing them off. The show knew where the line was and that's why it was great.

Joker popping out of nowhere to shoot Batgirl in the back, and ending the episode on that? Crosses the line. Maybe not for all TV-MA shows, but for a comedy? Yes.

 

[Frontier]

I have read, but this just felt like a weird thing to bring up but yeah I'm guessing the point was "even during this tragic moment where she's shot and possibly killed can't really care about her due to not liking this take on her character" which eh fair enough.

I wouldn't got that far, just that this Harley is gullible enough to believe Harley when she outright lies to her to cover her own crimes and just rolls with it. Which isn't really a Batgirl I like to watch.

 

[Yojimbo]

Remember when they went to the future, the resistance and later Ladyfingers said Harley and Ivy caused the apocalypse but then at the end King Baby told them it was Lex. We are talking about the future and changing the timeline. We just saw the Flash's Cosmic Treadmill. Harley changed her past but Clegg died again but in a different way. So here Harly and Ivy stopped Lex's apocalypse but what if they still cause a second one i.e. the SpaceLex moon base gets blown up and thus most of the moon?

 

[Neo Ultra Mike]

The show knew where the line was and that's why it was great.

Joker popping out of nowhere to shoot Batgirl in the back, and ending the episode on that? Crosses the line. Maybe not for all TV-MA shows, but for a comedy? Yes.

I mean the first season's second to last episode also ended on Joker seemingly killing someone in a surprising shocking horrific way plus though within the context of the episode it was out of nowhere, it made sense within the overall season's narrative. I guess we all do have where our lines are but for me though shocking it did make sense within the rest of the season and actually does make me excited for how the season could end cause this could be the thing that pushes Harley into fulling offing the Joker in this continuity guess we'll see.

I wouldn't got that far, just that this Harley is gullible enough to believe Harley when she outright lies to her to cover her own crimes and just rolls with it. Which isn't really a Batgirl I like to watch.

I guess you mean "this Batgirl is gullible enough to believe Harley when she outright lies to her" but either way fair enough. I'm not there with Barbara yet... though if she does survive this I am hoping she learns from the experience cause especially in these last episodes she's starting to teeter dangerously close to acting a bit too much like her dad aka my least favorite character on the show. Kind of like how I got annoyed over that South Park Chat GPT episode; not because it didn't make sense but because I don't like the idea of Stan starting to act too much or get away with stuff like Randy and wouldn't want Barbara to backslide into Jim Gordon... for a multiple amount of reasons.

Remember when they went to the future, the resistance and later Ladyfingers said Harley and Ivy caused the apocalypse but then at the end King Baby told them it was Lex. We are talking about the future and changing the timeline. We just saw the Flash's Cosmic Treadmill.

Again wonder what the limitations of that are or of changing the future within this reality hope that is better explained in the next episode if time travel happens.

 

[Yojimbo]

Again wonder what the limitations of that are or of changing the future within this reality hope that is better explained in the next episode if time travel happens.

True. It left some food for thought heading into the season finale. Harley changed the past with the Treadmill but Clegg died in a new way. So if Harley and Ivy changed the future by stopping the apocalypse, does that mean the apocalypse still happens but in a different way? Hence my theory about the moon base. Or for that matter, does Harley and Ivy still have a child at the same point in time now that they have future knowledge of having a child or does it happen later or at all?

 

[Frontier]

Remember when they went to the future, the resistance and later Ladyfingers said Harley and Ivy caused the apocalypse but then at the end King Baby told them it was Lex. We are talking about the future and changing the timeline. We just saw the Flash's Cosmic Treadmill. Harley changed her past but Clegg died again but in a different way. So here Harly and Ivy stopped Lex's apocalypse but what if they still cause a second one i.e. the SpaceLex moon base gets blown up and thus most of the moon?

And then season 5 is No Man's Land 2.0 except it's the entire Earth .

 

[Yojimbo]

Episode 10 "Killer's Block" - September 14, 2023 (Season Finale)

Ivy crashes a birthday party on the moon. Harley contemplates how to best avenge her friend.

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[Neo Ultra Mike]

"Killer's Block" - I will say unlike "Something Borrowed, Something Green" that felt like it was missing a few steps between how the previous episode ended and that one this did flow better but this also flowed ridiculously fast. I admit some of the plots and bits of the season in the weaker episodes felt like they were stalling but man this was like a mile a minute to hit all the notes of the story. I will say though in terms of narrative I actually think this is pretty strong especially in how it ties up the character arcs. I still maintain the view this is still probably the best take on Talia al Ghul we've seen but the whole "super powerful competent business women who though will insult and belittle guys any chance they get but also aren't about actually going through and making change but just celebrating their success and enjoying the riches that come from it" does actually fit the character. Especially if you are familiar with her and notice that we've yet to seen Ra's (who if there is going to be a season 5 we HAVE to see. Like we saw the Lazarus Pits at the end we have to see Ra's now) who yeah if this episode is any indication, Talia still probably follows around in some form. But I think this is an important reveal for such a pro feminist show because it shows that yeah the very idea of "girl boss" that Talia and Cale and the like strive towards is pretty fake and not going to advocate actual change and I appreciate how annoyed Ivy was realizing that and wanting to go through change by actually taking out Lex... but not being able to when he had supercharged himself with Superman's powers. Which okay I pointed out some of the not really in character pettyness from Lex in previous episodes but that is full on Lex Luthor; creating this device just to be able to overpower Superman, steal his own super powered DNA and lock him away to slowly die while flaunting to people his new makeover. Pretty clear he didn't get too much since yeah why else would have needed the rover since if he had superman powers he could fly in space (I mean we later saw a fully powered Superman move the moon back so even within this show he's that powerful) but it is fitting and I guess also due punishment of him being taken away by Steppenwolf at the end... not sure for what but hopefully that means we're focusing on someone else as a main bad guy in this episode. I did really like though Ivy just nuking and blowing out all the places in Gotham of the other head business ladies as well as Lex's place... kind of feels weak to have that also be the excuse for Bruce to go "eh okay I need to be Batman" again and then just make a call and get out of jail. I know it's played as a joke and not like Bruce really had any screen time this season at all but honestly kind of feels like the team were sort of forced to do that last minute. Also I didn't like the joke with Alfred now finally going to Blackwood just as Bruce was leaving though I will say if the season opens with Bruce springing Alfred out (like it's not like he's going to let his butler stew in prison) and Alfred acting steamed at him it would be worth it.

The Harley stuff was also pretty rushed at points but I think worked out for the most part. I mean unlike the season 2 finale it doesn't take too huge a leap as harley cradling Babera after she was shot to trying to get Joker and tracking him down to Bethany's worked. And I appreciate actually showing the family and their loyalty but line with Joker not even that plussed just mocking Harley for threatening kids and then for her inability to kill him. Though I am hoping Joker either dies or we don't have this sort of fake out AGAIN for a season finale; like the first season it showed Harley was fully over him and was willing to kill Joker and season 2 brought him back for a reason and was fine letting him be with the one he connected with but now we have two season finales of "Harley kidnaps Joker and makes threate of killing him but doesn't actually go through with it." Granted for different reasons but it is an old concept to bring up. I do like how this is make a firm stance that yeah Harley isn't a villain or a hero purely in this world and her thinking that means she stands in the middle but then reaffirming later from Harley she's an outsider. Though you would think this world would be more familiar with the term anti hero at least but hey I do like how contrary to what I thought this season would do they DIDN'T actually time jump to fix any of the problems but rather dealt with them in other ways. Like how yeah Barbara was shot but is still active and contrary to something like Killing Joke makes a firm stance of not wanting to be treated as a victim and WANTS to be active and help out as much as possible thus helping Harley and Ivy when asked as well as the whole her whole arc this season seeing her get tired of the Batfamily's general attitude and quit as well. Which is different from the source material as yeah Oracle was still a big figure to the Bat Family even when paralyzed but I think this does work with what we've seen of her this season. Plus though there weren't too many jokes I laughed at this episode (which is to me it's biggest failing in not being that funny) I really dug the joke of the Gotam City Sirens being pitched and Babs suggesting birds of prey and that being turned down by the others since they had nothing to do with Birds. Though yeah I have to say that is a cool way to end the season and to give a new idenitty to the show for a hopeful season 5; Harley, Ivy, Babs and I guess Catwoman becoming the Gotham City Sirens and trying to figure out what happened to Nightwing who as it turns out took the Lazarus Bath procedure. Now from season 2 we know there was a Jason Todd in this universe who died but don't know if there was a Red Hood so... could it be possible that in this universe it will be Dick who becomes Red Hood in pursuit of his revenge against Harley cause that would be cool to see.

Again admittedly not a lot of jokes hit in this for me. Joker's annoyance of how Harley wavered in trying to think of ways to kill him and then asking Gordon "can you just shoot me" after he talks about A24 torture movies he saw was funny as was Harley carrying Supes if only cause I appreciate the reveresal of the Crisis of Infinite earths inspired imagery but yeah despite moving super fast the story was good and I do like the idea of paralleling how Ivy and Harley don't really fit in with these groups this season and forming their own. Wonder if we'll see some of their other allies from this season or others join the Sirens or if it will be the four but eitherway hopefully that is answered in season 5 but even as a finale to the show itself this was pretty good.

 

[Trueblade74]

You know, I was actually hoping Joker shooting Babs in the back wouldn't cripple her. Would be a decent departure from the thing we're all expecting to happen.

LOL that even Ivy has trouble keeping up with the "enemies today, allies tomorrow" attitudes every character has.

Did they make a sinister BGM from Happy Birthday just because they could?

Lex's misogyny feels forced, especially with lines like "I demand to speak to your male superior".

If the season was going to end with forming the not-Birds of Prey, then they probably should've given Catwoman some more screentime and relevance.

Also not sure if there's supposed to be anything deeper to the message of "corporate villainy bad, anarchic destruction good" beyond its humor value.