John Kricfalusi's thoughts on Japanese Anime

[Hiya Animation]

This is interesting:

http://www.michaelbarrier.com/Feedback/feedback_johnk.htm

An interesting, if not heated, discussion between John K and Michael Barrier.

Anyone read it before?

 

[Movie06]

Man, was that debate crazy.

 

[Henk55]

Do you even watch Spongebob Squarepants?

I like SpongeBob too and watch it but I definitely see what he's saying. I just watched the imagination box episode and it was hilarious, and very imaginative idea. But the way whole show moves and feels is pretty consistent throughout the series. Asking for a variety in style on episode basis may seem extreme these days, but that's just what Ren and Stimpy did. It feels so warm and innovative compared to the huge part of modern cartoons

Spongebob eating a popcorn bucket full of his own arms is a gag... and the gags and the story are the only things that seem to matter. No suprises in the other departments.


About the "overly human expressions" that "normal non-cartooning" viewers can't handle"? Well most cartoons are made for KIDS, and they are just as cold as the Family Guy. Ok, I don't care for the Family Guy, but why does everybody else have to follow it?

 

[Jordo]

Re: box of arms, etc in Spongebob.

As I said in my original post, Spongebob has some very talented writers and has some very funny gags.

But it does NOT have variety of expression or much humanity in any of the poses or facial expressions of the characters. Everything I've seen of Spongebob looks the same, i.e. can't tell one episode from the other, one scene from the other. He seems to always have the same basic expressions, and they are very very simplified and routinely applied. And I have DEFINITELY seen many poses and basic expressions that I can only recall first ever seeing in a Spumco cartoon.

That's why I called it a "thumbnail" version of Ren and Stimpy (much like what the later seasons of Ren and Stimpy were to...Ren and Stimpy)... Because it's trying to capture the chaotic feel, the weirdness, the sneaky adult humor (and it is succeeding in many respects), but MISSING the technique, the humanity, the individuality in the drawings and the personality.

I'm not saying every cartoon should be like that (again, I'm a south park fan, simpsons fan, etc)-- this was all spurred by somebody declaring that Spongebob "out John K's John K." , which I think is incredibly false.

To even use the phrase "on model" with Ren and Stimpy is meaningless. There WERE no models! No "key" expressions. The way they looked in each individual moment was only meant to capture the characters feelings at that specific time. This is John K's specialty. Hate his gross jokes, hate his blog or stubbornness, or his opinions, but THAT was his specialty!

P.S. I love that debate with Michael Barrier. John has really interesting points about Disney, and how Disney achieves emotion through lighting, music, movement, but never through original acting. I have not seen anything to the contrary...?


-Jordan

 

[Zorak Masaki]

Since this is just a catch-all john k thread, does anyone know what john k's involvement in 2 stupid dogs was? He's credited in 3 eps for "tidbits of bad taste" but i dont know how much involvement he had in the show, and why he only did 3 eps.

 

[madhair60]

OK, John K thread.

I have mixed feelings about the man. Much as I love Ren and Stimpy's first few seasons, what exactly of note has he/Spumco produced since then?

Also I get tired of seeing people complain (not so much here, but elsewhere online) about his firing from Nick - people seem to believe the myth that he got sacked for controversial content.

No, no - all the shows would have been screened for execs, who would have had anything truly objectionable cut out. The reason he was fired was because he missed deadlines and argued with higher-ups. No matter what field you work in, if you miss deadlines and argue with superiors you WILL get sacked.

Also, he really does come across as a tremendously arrogant man, completely blind to his own faults.

 

[Zorak Masaki]

OK, John K thread.

I have mixed feelings about the man. Much as I love Ren and Stimpy's first few seasons, what exactly of note has he/Spumco produced since then?

Also I get tired of seeing people complain (not so much here, but elsewhere online) about his firing from Nick - people seem to believe the myth that he got sacked for controversial content.

Well, to be fair, he did produce a george liquour webtoon and the ripping friends and videos for bjork, tenacious d, and weird al so its not like he's completely relying on the past. BTW, am i the only one who thinks stimpy doesnt look like much of a cat? I mean, ive never seen a cat who looks anything like stimpy (ive seen ren-like dogs so its not just john k's unique design for his characters).

 

[Silverstar]

BTW, am i the only one who thinks stimpy doesnt look like much of a cat? I mean, ive never seen a cat who looks anything like stimpy

Well, Stimpy wasn't originally a cat; he was just a cartoon blob that Kricfalusi had been doodling for years. When he began putting together The Ren & Stimpy Show, he made Stimpy into a cat.

 

[Jordo]

OK, John K thread.

I have mixed feelings about the man. Much as I love Ren and Stimpy's first few seasons, what exactly of note has he/Spumco produced since then?

Also I get tired of seeing people complain (not so much here, but elsewhere online) about his firing from Nick - people seem to believe the myth that he got sacked for controversial content.

No, no - all the shows would have been screened for execs, who would have had anything truly objectionable cut out. The reason he was fired was because he missed deadlines and argued with higher-ups. No matter what field you work in, if you miss deadlines and argue with superiors you WILL get sacked.

Also, he really does come across as a tremendously arrogant man, completely blind to his own faults.

I'm not sure of the research you've done, but if you've read interviews with him, or his blog, you would see he is most definitely NOT "blind to his own faults." He has stated several complaints about his own cartoons all the time.

I still go by the fact that the "official" reason he got fired was missing deadlines -- But it was a BAD relationship with Nickelodeon. They did NOT trust him, they wanted EVERYTHING in his story outlines changed (he did a detailed blog post about this), and they were scared of him.

No one is defending missing your deadlines, but to fire him and then make the cartoon without him, and not only that but try to "capture" what he did and turning the gross out level to a million...

If you listen to John K's commentaries on the Ren and Stimpy DVDs (which you should!) he goes into detail. Not only did Nickelodeon LEAVE HIS NAME OUT OF THE CREDITS for episodes he had written ("where's my name?" he jokingly asks for these episodes), but in an attempt to still be "gross", they did horrible things to Ren and Stimpy.

They put blood in the cartoons, maggots, killed off the characters in disgusting ways. John K always defends that he put gross things that little kids like -- boogers, farts, etc. But Games animation put in disturbing, ugly, awful things, like blood and disease and death.

I find it odd.

Oh yeah, and in terms of what he has produced since Ren and Stimpy of note -- Sadly, not enough. But The Ripping Friends has a few STAND OUT episodes, absolutely great. He lead the flash animation boom (again, he has a blog post about it) and he was one of those in charge of revitalizing cartoon network (getting Dexters Lab, Powerpuff Girls, etc on the air.)

I think the Adult Ren and Stimpy episodes are powerhouses of intricate, creative, and mind blowing animation -- regardless of whether you find the content funny or not (I do, for the most part.)

His Weird Al video is beautiful too. But I wish he had some TV series. Networks are scared of him.

Jesus christ my posts are always too long, I guess I really like John K.
-Jordan

 

[Jave]

he was one of those in charge of revitalizing cartoon network (getting Dexters Lab, Powerpuff Girls, etc on the air.)

Now I'm going to have to demand evidence. I keep hearing Spumco fans tossing this statement left and right but I haven't found anything to back it up. His never was never in any credits outside of the Yogi cartoons he made and a very quick "Special Thanks" credit in "Tales of the Paranoia Worm" cartoon (which was done by Eddie Fitzgerald). I've seen people go as far as claiming that Dexter's Lab and PPG RIPPED OFF Ren & Stimpy. Seriously, people, HOW?

I recall a lot of people giving up on Spumco back when the "UNCUT" first season was released. A lot of people claimed they weren't going to buy it because the cartoons were edited, and John K made a public post (I believe it was in a forum) were he basically called all those people ingrates and begged others to buy the set. I personally didn't care for that (the set wasn't released down here anyway), but I can understand why many people (even some of the most loyal fans) gave up on him after that.

I'd love to see John K doing a cartoon in the same vein of Classic R&S. Good animation, good layouts, good timing, good writing, good EVERYTHING. The guy has talent, I'm positive of that, but he needs to realize that not everyone is attracted to the kind of humor he seems to overuse in his recent cartoons.

 

[Peter Paltridge]

*reads interview*

I think you have made up in your mind what the perfect cartoon for you is and you are looking for only those elements in everything you watch and when a cartoon doesn't give you that (which 99.9999 percent of them won't) you can't see all the other good things that are happening that people of wider tastes can appreciate.

....Is he talking to, uh, himself?

 

[Antiyonder]

No, no - all the shows would have been screened for execs, who would have had anything truly objectionable cut out. The reason he was fired was because he missed deadlines and argued with higher-ups. No matter what field you work in, if you miss deadlines and argue with superiors you WILL get sacked.

Too bad Marvel didn't read the memo when Kevin Smith was writing his Spider-Man miniseries. The last few issues took years to come out, and the only reason Marvel didn't object was due to his status as a hot director and being friends with Joe Quesada.

No one is defending missing your deadlines, but to fire him and then make the cartoon without him, and not only that but try to "capture" what he did and turning the gross out level to a million...

Have to say it gives me more respect for Nick. The thing to keep in mind is that a job (even one you enjoy) isn't like a hobby where you can pick and choose when to get involved. You either put yourself fully into it or don't do it at all.

I think the Adult Ren and Stimpy episodes are powerhouses of intricate, creative, and mind blowing animation -- regardless of whether you find the content funny or not (I do, for the most part.)

Anyone can make a show with excessive adult content, but true creativity would be to make an outstanding show without the content.

Classic Ren & Stimpy- Adult bits are handled subtly thus requiring the viewer to pick it up on their own.

AP Ren & Stimpy- Constantly hammers you over the head saying, "Our cartoon has more content, our cartoon has more content".

Jesus christ my posts are always too long, I guess I really like John K.
-Jordan

Nothing wrong with liking him, but hero worship (which I perceive your views on him) is unhealthy. Sure you've made a critical statement or two, but it's like with you, no matter what he does wrong, he's the reigning Champ in your eyes.

I like Stan Lee (not personally), but I don't defend some of his particular choices that I find unpleasant (i.e. Stripperella or the planned Paris Hilton cartoon).

 

[Racattack!Force]

If you listen to John K's commentaries on the Ren and Stimpy DVDs (which you should!) he goes into detail. Not only did Nickelodeon LEAVE HIS NAME OUT OF THE CREDITS for episodes he had written ("where's my name?" he jokingly asks for these episodes), but in an attempt to still be "gross", they did horrible things to Ren and Stimpy.
-Jordan

That's funny, since they still episodes with him credited on NN.

 

[Darklordavaitor]

I'm not sure of the research you've done, but if you've read interviews with him, or his blog, you would see he is most definitely NOT "blind to his own faults." He has stated several complaints about his own cartoons all the time.

I still go by the fact that the "official" reason he got fired was missing deadlines -- But it was a BAD relationship with Nickelodeon. They did NOT trust him, they wanted EVERYTHING in his story outlines changed (he did a detailed blog post about this), and they were scared of him.

No one is defending missing your deadlines, but to fire him and then make the cartoon without him, and not only that but try to "capture" what he did and turning the gross out level to a million...

If you listen to John K's commentaries on the Ren and Stimpy DVDs (which you should!) he goes into detail. Not only did Nickelodeon LEAVE HIS NAME OUT OF THE CREDITS for episodes he had written ("where's my name?" he jokingly asks for these episodes), but in an attempt to still be "gross", they did horrible things to Ren and Stimpy.

They put blood in the cartoons, maggots, killed off the characters in disgusting ways. John K always defends that he put gross things that little kids like -- boogers, farts, etc. But Games animation put in disturbing, ugly, awful things, like blood and disease and death.

I find it odd.

Oh yeah, and in terms of what he has produced since Ren and Stimpy of note -- Sadly, not enough. But The Ripping Friends has a few STAND OUT episodes, absolutely great. He lead the flash animation boom (again, he has a blog post about it) and he was one of those in charge of revitalizing cartoon network (getting Dexters Lab, Powerpuff Girls, etc on the air.)

I think the Adult Ren and Stimpy episodes are powerhouses of intricate, creative, and mind blowing animation -- regardless of whether you find the content funny or not (I do, for the most part.)

His Weird Al video is beautiful too. But I wish he had some TV series. Networks are scared of him.

Jesus christ my posts are always too long, I guess I really like John K.
-Jordan

Are you sure you're not John K?

 

[Leviathan]

There's this Bill Wray quote from a 1993 magazine that is along the lines of "Nick could've tolerated going overbudget, they could've tolerated an episode having to be banned for inappropriate content, as long as they had episodes to air", basically coming to the conclusion that deadlines were the foremost reason for the Spumco thing.

...and that idea makes the most sense. What network is going to totally dismantle thier then-most popular show's production team over small amounts of footage that were later cut out or shelved? If that was standard procedure, then Matt Groening, Seth MacFarlane, Trey Parker, and any TV cartoon creator whose show featured a tsunami/hurricane-related episode would've been out of work long ago.

I recall a lot of people giving up on Spumco back when the "UNCUT" first season was released. A lot of people claimed they weren't going to buy it because the cartoons were edited, and John K made a public post (I believe it was in a forum) were he basically called all those people ingrates and begged others to buy the set.

Actually, I was one of those people. John blamed Nick for the edits (Strange, considering how Nick never cut up episodes like Ren's Toothache or Haunted House to begin with), Steve Worth blamed SpikeTV for the edits, and Lyris tried to pass off the edits is "Director's Cuts". They couldn't even find one concrete reason for the edits, and expected everyone to obediently buy their hot potato game. That was the beginning of the end for my loyalty to Spumco.

And this was before John's blog, when his presence online was mostly the occasional IRC chat or interview. When he gets its going the "The Only GOOD Cartoon is a Bob Clampett Cartoon" floodgates are REALLY opened, with Steve Worth bascially saying anyone on various blogs and forums who doesn't blindly swallow John's statments hook, line and sinker is too stupid to understand the art of animation.

Before I close this, let me just say that I wanted to support Spumco. I did in the past, and wanted to continue doing so. But if you read enough of the writing of Spumco's top officers with an impartial eye, then it becomes really, really hard to support them.

 

[Leviathan]

Now I'm going to have to demand evidence. I keep hearing Spumco fans tossing this statement left and right but I haven't found anything to back it up. His never was never in any credits outside of the Yogi cartoons he made and a very quick "Special Thanks" credit in "Tales of the Paranoia Worm" cartoon (which was done by Eddie Fitzgerald). I've seen people go as far as claiming that Dexter's Lab and PPG RIPPED OFF Ren & Stimpy. Seriously, people, HOW?

Genndy was apparently influenced by John K. (Jon McClenahan talks about this briefly in his interview with Martianinvader) which sadly makes Dexter fair game for John's whacked-out claims.

Now, as far as The Powerpuff Girls are concerned, there's ZERO factual backing on that being a Ren and Stimpy ripoff.

 

[Jordo]

Now I'm going to have to demand evidence.

Ok, calm down.

...Read his blog. He was the one that had meetings with the head of Cartoon Network, spearheaded the idea of "Cartoon Cartoon", where all these new creator driven shows battle it out to see who gets a series. He wouldn't exactly be credited in the specific shows. He was more like a network consultant for the whole thing.

He also greatly admires all of those creators work. Boo, hiss! What a mean guy!



-Jordan

 

[Jordo]

Have to say it gives me more respect for Nick. The thing to keep in mind is that a job (even one you enjoy) isn't like a hobby where you can pick and choose when to get involved. You either put yourself fully into it or don't do it at all.

You...respect Nick for stealing somebody's creation? Do you respect the Goliath Chronicles too (to continue the weird comparison to Greg Weisman.)

Look, you can like the later seasons of Ren and Stimpy better, you can sympathize with Nick for firing John, but I can't imagine why anybody in their right mind would respect Nick for doing something so uncreative, against artistic integrity, and backhanded. You actually support leaving his name OFF the credits? I mean, what?

Even if this was in regards to a show I HATED I would be absolutely disgusted with the behavior of the network...

Anyone can make a show with excessive adult content, but true creativity would be to make an outstanding show without the content.

Classic Ren & Stimpy- Adult bits are handled subtly thus requiring the viewer to pick it up on their own.

AP Ren & Stimpy- Constantly hammers you over the head saying, "Our cartoon has more content, our cartoon has more content".

Yes, yes, that is the common argument I've seen over and over.

I don't know why I have to repeat myself -- All I said in my last post is that animation wise, the new episodes are mindblowing. "Anyone can make a show..." etc, yes, but not everyone can make it look and feel like THAT.

John K wanted to put some gross jokes in his shows, that doesn't mean he doesn't have "true creativity." Jeez, he's like a compulsive cartoonist, have you ever seen his sketchbook stuff, or restaurant napkin drawings? He's bursting with ideas. You may not LIKE the ideas, but you can't accuse him of not having creativity.

Nothing wrong with liking him, but hero worship (which I perceive your views on him) is unhealthy. Sure you've made a critical statement or two, but it's like with you, no matter what he does wrong, he's the reigning Champ in your eyes..

That's kind of insulting. I'm not "hero worshipping." I'm a fan, I love his work. Sometimes he lets me down -- as I've stated already. I'm REALISTIC about it. I'm not some drooling idiot. Please don't imply otherwise, I find it offensive.

The only reason I joined this thread in the first place is because people were claiming things that WEREN'T TRUE and then getting MAD at John K for it. That's a lot worse than "hero worshipping." It's just blind internet bashing.

I don't think he's the "reigning champ." I think he's a funny guy, good writer (blog) and a great animator. He's clearly not reigning in any sense of the word, he can't even get a TV show on the air. But I admire him a lot and think he has a very unique vision. No other cartoons have made me felt quite the way his does.

AND his blog is great if ONLY for the historical tidbits about old cartoons. I've learned so much about all the old Warner Bros animators, how they worked, etc, and I'm glad I did! His blog is for ANYBODY who's interested in cartoons or animating. Geez, he even gives free animation lessons and will critique your work for you (and NOT be "nice" about it, but be logical and constructive, which is what a real teacher should do, not like how it is in art school...) Go ahead, read what he wrote to "students" in the comments. He even goes to people's blogs and gives advice. Some good, some bad, always constructive and always supportive.

His personality is harshly exaggerated in this thread...


-Jordan

 

[Zorak Masaki]

The thing is that he has weird ideas of what good cartoons are. For example, ive never seen him say a good thing about the simpsons, yet he used beavis and butthead as an example of good cartoony characters. As good as B & B is, its a classic example of limited animation (recycled animation, characters with poorly drawn facial features, etc) while the simpsons have done episodes which are incredible to look at (ie, the mysterious voyage of homer, the first treehouse of horror ep, etc).

 

[Antiyonder]

You...respect Nick for stealing somebody's creation? Do you respect the Goliath Chronicles too (to continue the weird comparison to Greg Weisman.)

Look, you can like the later seasons of Ren and Stimpy better, you can sympathize with Nick for firing John, but I can't imagine why anybody in their right mind would respect Nick for doing something so uncreative, against artistic integrity, and backhanded. You actually support leaving his name OFF the credits? I mean, what?

Even if this was in regards to a show I HATED I would be absolutely disgusted with the behavior of the network...

I respect them for not allowing their employees to slack off (i.e. missing deadlines). As I've stated in the paragraph above it, Marvel allowed for Kevin Smith to miss his deadlines when he was doing the miniseries Spider-Man/Black Cat: The Evil Men Do, simply because of his popularity.

Yes, yes, that is the common argument I've seen over and over.

I don't know why I have to repeat myself -- All I said in my last post is that animation wise, the new episodes are mindblowing. "Anyone can make a show..." etc, yes, but not everyone can make it look and feel like THAT.

John K wanted to put some gross jokes in his shows, that doesn't mean he doesn't have "true creativity." Jeez, he's like a compulsive cartoonist, have you ever seen his sketchbook stuff, or restaurant napkin drawings? He's bursting with ideas. You may not LIKE the ideas, but you can't accuse him of not having creativity.

So he may be creative, but the example I provided doesn't seem like he exercised the creativity.