Just How Bad is the CW4Kids?

[Toon Out]

Spider Riders, Monster Allergy, and Viewtiful Joe came and went, replaced with better shows. And they all aired in tandem when Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were still on the Kids' WB lineup, not afterwards, and definitely not the focal point. Eon Kid was a decent show and not what you call "cheap animation."

As far as the focal point shows I was refering to, those would be Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh, and even though some of those shows came and went, the likely hood of those shows or similar shows reappearing on KidsWB was very likely. And since I don't believe KidsWB paid for the production of Eon Kid, that show would fall into the "cheaply-dubbed marketable children's entertainment" category.

I think that The CW actually wanted at least four hours to be comprised of new episodes, not just a rerun fest.

Putting aside what we may think The CW would have wanted, there will be two and a half hours of new programing in the fall 2008 with an additional one and a half hour (not counting new episodes of Spectacular Spider-Man) of new programming coming before the end of the 2008-2009 season, so I don't see a problem in the fall 2008-2009 line up, as far as new content is concerned.

4Kids didn't have to produce 18 new series at one time. They could have done well with nine. Five on The CW and four on Fox. They're not responsible for producing every series on the block according to the contracts for both Fox and The CW. Their only job is to program the blocks. The thing with 4Kids is that they have to own every aspect of the shows that they program on the blocks. The shows they don't own outright are often seen earlier in the blocks like DiGata and Biker Mice From Mars on Fox and The Spectacular Spider-Man on The CW. They could easily acquire shows for both blocks from many companies, including Viz, Taffy, Nelvana (DiGata's owners and producers), Entertainment Rights, Sony (which owns the Spectacular Spider-Man series), Marathon, Cookie Jar, and others without having to own a piece of it, but in that aspect, 4Kids is greedy.

How much of the blocks do you feel need to be aquired from other companies, keeping in mind the top time slots will naturally go to 4Kids owned or produced properties, with the possibilty that their top properties will get repeats?

 

[Jeff Harris]

As far as the focal point shows I was refering to, those would be Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh, and even though some of those shows came and went, the likely hood of those shows or similar shows reappearing on KidsWB was very likely.

No, it wasn't. The only show that was in that vein of game-based fighting to air on Kids' WB in the two years without Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon was Magi-Nation. They didn't produce nor acquire shows like that for two years, and the ratings were decent. Yeah, they aired another season of the atrocious Loonatics and a season of a SpongeBob ripoff, but they didn't attempt to emulate shows that, in essence, killed Kids' WB.

Ask talk to folks at Toon Zone's "Warner Bros. Club" and learn about the real destructive nature of those series on the block.

And since I don't believe KidsWB paid for the production of Eon Kid, that show would fall into the "cheaply-dubbed marketable children's entertainment" category.

Eon Kid was hardly cheaply-dubbed marketable children's entertainment. The series was well-crafted and looked like it took some time to create. It wasn't intended for merchandising purposes. It didn't have a licensor pushing the show's creation and distribution, like all the 4Kids programming does (remember, 4Kids Entertainment was once called Leisure Concepts, whose core business is marketing and licensing of other people's properties, which they still do to this day).

Putting aside what we may think The CW would have wanted, there will be two and a half hours of new programing in the fall 2008 with an additional one and a half hour (not counting new episodes of Spectacular Spider-Man) of new programming coming before the end of the 2008-2009 season, so I don't see a problem in the fall 2008-2009 line up, as far as new content is concerned.

Oh, I KNOW what some within The CW wanted from 4Kids programming-wise. They wanted a fully-powered five-hour programming block comprised of first-run programming, not unlike what they had last season. They didn't want a block comprised of reruns from the past season of another network, and that's what the fall lineup largely resembles. New shows and episodes attract more eyeballs. 4Kids is taking the old NBC adage "if you haven't seen it, it's new to you" to heart.

How much of the blocks do you feel need to be aquired from other companies, keeping in mind the top time slots will naturally go to 4Kids owned or produced properties, with the possibilty that their top properties will get repeats?

I think a 50/50 ratio would be appropriate for a broadcast block. 4Kids doesn't have to have a direct ownership in all the shows on the block (you know, Fox Kids and Kids' WB were the last two blocks that third-party outlets could air their wares, and with KWB's closure, 4Kids has closed off a lot of third-party access, truly ending the institution of Saturday morning television), but that's what they'll do with 3/5 of the lineup.

If 4Kids did have a 50/50 self-owned/acquired ratio for CW 4Kids, then it would really prove to me that they know how to program a block instead of just airing whatever show they have a significant ownership in like they have done with 4Kids TV. Ah, the days of Fighting Food-Ons.

 

[Toon Out]

No, it wasn't. The only show that was in that vein of game-based fighting to air on Kids' WB in the two years without Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon was Magi-Nation. They didn't produce nor acquire shows like that for two years, and the ratings were decent. Yeah, they aired another season of the atrocious Loonatics and a season of a SpongeBob ripoff, but they didn't attempt to emulate shows that, in essence, killed Kids' WB.

As had I mentioned shows like Monster Allergy, Viewtiful Joe, Spider-Riders (which did occasionally appear on KidsWB after Pokemon/Yu-Gi-Oh ), as well as other Cookie Jar Shows as cheap ("cheap" in the sense KidsWB only paid to acquire them to show on the network and did not pay for the production of those shows) kids entertainment, not necessarily shows strictly based on card games, that would also include Eon Kid. But reading through your comments there would seem to be a disconnect in the points of our argument, since I'm not questioning the money put into the shows by the animation studio, quality, or the even the subject matter of the shows themselves. Although, seeing the toy line for Eon Kid, someone did intend for it to be used for merchandising purposes.

Oh, I KNOW what some within The CW wanted from 4Kids programming-wise. They wanted a fully-powered five-hour programming block comprised of first-run programming, not unlike what they had last season. They didn't want a block comprised of reruns from the past season of another network, and that's what the fall lineup largely resembles. New shows and episodes attract more eyeballs. 4Kids is taking the old NBC adage "if you haven't seen it, it's new to you" to heart.

The only reruns from 4KidsTV appearing on CW4Kids this fall is the one hour Chaotic block, and considering the importance of Chaotic to 4kids this was to be expected, as you have said, a big part of 4Kids business is marketing and licensing, so it was a given 4Kids would set aside one hour of the block to show repeats of their shows (eventually one of the other new 4Kids properties may take up one or both Chaotic slots). So assuming 4Kids would air 5 new programs (which they are), add that to the one hour repeat block, that's seven of the ten available slots, leaving the e/i hour and one other slot, this seemed to be pretty predictable.

I think a 50/50 ratio would be appropriate for a broadcast block. 4Kids doesn't have to have a direct ownership in all the shows on the block (you know, Fox Kids and Kids' WB were the last two blocks that third-party outlets could air their wares, and with KWB's closure, 4Kids has closed off a lot of third-party access, truly ending the institution of Saturday morning television), but that's what they'll do with 3/5 of the lineup.

The institution of Saturday morning cartoons as it was in the days of of Fox Kids and KidsWB ended a long time ago, well before 4kids took over KidsWB.

 

[bigddan11]

And for the record, there is no separate Central time on the CW4Kids. CW4Kids runs from 7:00 AM - 12:00 PM here as well.

Not in all areas. I live in the Central Time Zone, and on every Texas CW affiliate the block airs from 6 AM- 11 AM. I have also watched the block in Albuquerque, Salt Lake City, Idaho Falls, Boise, and Denver, and in all those cities the block aired from 6 AM- 11 AM. Now I realize most of the others I listed are Mountain, but the CW4Kids Web site themselves lists the Central Time Zone as being an hour earlier, meaning that it is your affiliate delaying it by an hour and that the block is indeed aired simultaneously in the CT in most places as the ET.

 

[Jeff Harris]

As had I mentioned shows like Monster Allergy, Viewtiful Joe, Spider-Riders (which did occasionally appear on KidsWB after Pokemon/Yu-Gi-Oh), as well as other Cookie Jar Shows as cheap ("cheap" in the sense KidsWB only paid to acquire them to show on the network and did not pay for the production of those shows) kids entertainment . . .

Actually, Kids' WB did pay some of the production costs on the recent Cookie Jar series, serving as an executive producer on both Johnny Test and The World of Quest. Plus, Cartoon Network was an executive producer on Monster Allergy.

that would also include Eon Kid.

Would it include Spectacular Spider-Man, since that series was also acquired the same time as Eon Kid?

But reading through your comments there would seem to be a disconnect in the points of our argument, since I'm not questioning the money put into the shows by the animation studio, quality, or the even the subject matter of the shows themselves. Although, seeing the toy line for Eon Kid, someone did intend for it to be used for merchandising purposes.

Yeah, they did. That's why they renamed Iron Kid "Eon Kid." Wouldn't want Marvel to get snippy over an Iron-named character.

The only reruns from 4KidsTV appearing on CW4Kids this fall is the one hour Chaotic block. . .

Keep believing that.

. . . and considering the importance of Chaotic to 4kids this was to be expected, as you have said, a big part of 4Kids business is marketing and licensing, so it was a given 4Kids would set aside one hour of the block to show repeats of their shows (eventually one of the other new 4Kids properties may take up one or both Chaotic slots).

Here's a thought. Why not air the new episodes on The CW first and then ship them over to Fox instead of the other way around? Chaotic is one of the few properties they own outright, so why not make the new version of the series a highlight of the new CW lineup, which so many people are hellbent on believing is the superior brand, instead of on what these same folks are calling the subpar Fox brand?

So assuming 4Kids would air 5 new programs (which they are), add that to the one hour repeat block, that's seven of the ten available slots, leaving the e/i hour and one other slot, this seemed to be pretty predictable.

Never assume anything. What's to say that 4Kids won't, out of the blue, add repeats of Cubix, Sonic X, and the best of Ninja Turtles or uncover "the lost episodes of Yu-Gi-Oh! GX" when certain shows go on a brief break in the winter (and they will go on breaks throughout the season)? One would look at what they've done over at 4KidsTV for an example of how they're going to manage CW4Kids.

The institution of Saturday morning cartoons as it was in the days of of Fox Kids and KidsWB ended a long time ago, well before 4kids took over KidsWB.

I'm not going to disagree with that either. However, Kids' WB was the last, almost uncorrupted block not completely dominated by a single corporate entity. Even when Warner Bros. was running the show, there was an even ratio of WB-owned properties to third-party titles.

 

[Toon Out]

Would it include Spectacular Spider-Man, since that series was also acquired the same time as Eon Kid?

Depending on how much, if anything, KidsWB spent on the production of "Spectacular Spider-Man", then yes. But again, I think we are arguing two different points.

Keep believing that.

Simply going by the early posted schedule (which I know are always subject to change).

Here's a thought. Why not air the new episodes on The CW first and then ship them over to Fox instead of the other way around? Chaotic is one of the few properties they own outright, so why not make the new version of the series a highlight of the new CW lineup, which so many people are hellbent on believing is the superior brand, instead of on what these same folks are calling the subpar Fox brand?

4kidsTV may very well be a lame duck, but the ratings suggest it still is a viable programing block, and of course it belongs to them till the end of the 2008-2009 season, no need to gut it completely.

Never assume anything. What's to say that 4Kids won't, out of the blue, add repeats of Cubix, Sonic X, and the best of Ninja Turtles or uncover "the lost episodes of Yu-Gi-Oh! GX" when certain shows go on a brief break in the winter (and they will go on breaks throughout the season)? One would look at what they've done over at 4KidsTV for an example of how they're going to manage CW4Kids.

Sure they could show an older show they have the rights too, KidsWB wasn't above shuffling their line up and bringing back an older show for a brief stint, and there is always a chance a show performs absolutely poorly forcing the programmers to go with other options, but in this case 4Kids may just go with a repeat of one the newer shows, like TMNT BTTS, Yu-Gi-Oh 5Ds, or Dinosaur King. And one advantage of these types of shows is that there are enough episodes available to keep breaks shorter then they would be for a show that had only thirteen episodes. And with GOGORiKi as a late fall replacement, and Huntik, Kamen Rider, and Rollbots due in the winter of next year, 4Kids has a lot more options to play around with. And even if they don't do it often, they can always pick up a show from a third party.

I'm not going to disagree with that either. However, Kids' WB was the last, almost uncorrupted block not completely dominated by a single corporate entity. Even when Warner Bros. was running the show, there was an even ratio of WB-owned properties to third-party titles.

Thats true, but after WB cancelled the weekday block I never got the feeling that KidsWB was on really stable ground, and after the end of the Pokemon/Yu-Gi-Oh ratings bonanza, it felt like WB just gave up.

 

[Justy]

Plus, Cartoon Network was an executive producer on Monster Allergy.

Didn't know this...nice job CN..putting money in a show that you never once bothered to air, even after it disappeared from KidsWB. This would have been great to see on CN--it might have done really well as part of Miguzi, too.

 

[Racattack!Force]

Didn't know this...nice job CN..putting money in a show that you never once bothered to air, even after it disappeared from KidsWB. This would have been great to see on CN--it might have done really well as part of Miguzi, too.

...But that's impossible. Monster Allergy is based on a series of Disney Italy comics. There's no way Cartoon Network could have worked on a Disney property. It was executive produced by Rainbow S.p.A.

 

[bigddan11]

...But that's impossible. Monster Allergy is based on a series of Disney Italy comics. There's no way Cartoon Network could have worked on a Disney property. It was executive produced by Rainbow S.p.A.

It's not impossible if Disney didn't help produce the series. A company can give rights to make a series, but once a studio has those rights, then they can seek whomever they need to help fund the production. Furthermore, you did have a couple of series in Team Galaxy and Battle B-Daman that were made for Jetix but aired on CN in the US, despite Disney owning the Jetix networks, so Disney has had a history of letting their rival get a hold of some of their properties.

 

[Jeff Harris]

Didn't know this...nice job CN..putting money in a show that you never once bothered to air, even after it disappeared from KidsWB. This would have been great to see on CN--it might have done really well as part of Miguzi, too.

They did air it on their international outlets. Just not here. It's just that the powers that be at Time Warner, and we've already proven what geniuses they are, felt that Kids' WB would have been a better outlet for the series.

Oops.

...But that's impossible. Monster Allergy is based on a series of Disney Italy comics. There's no way Cartoon Network could have worked on a Disney property.

Sure it's possible! Unlike the core titles of the big two American publishers, just because a title is published by a company doesn't exactly mean they own the property outright. Usually the creator owns the property they created (what a concept). It happens in Japan all the time.

 

[Racattack!Force]

They did air it on their international outlets. Just not here. It's just that the powers that be at Time Warner, and we've already proven what geniuses they are, felt that Kids' WB would have been a better outlet for the series.

Oops.

Sure it's possible! Unlike the core titles of the big two American publishers, just because a title is published by a company doesn't exactly mean they own the property outright. Usually the creator owns the property they created (what a concept). It happens in Japan all the time.

But it's airs on Disney Channels in most of the world...I'm no longer denying that Cartoon Network had a part in it due to that link, but still...

 

[Jill Faye]

I think CW4Kids is an improvement over Kids' WB. Heck what was the best thing Kids' WB had in the last few years? Pokemon? Or that Loonatics Unleashed? Now we've got a few gems even if they are from 4Kids. Spectacular Spider-man is good, so is the new Ninja Turtles, and even Chaotic is decent enough.