"Madame Web" Feature Talkback (Spoilers)

[Yojimbo]

Does knowing the future save you from it?

Madame Web
Release date: Theatrical - February 14, 2024
Studio: Sony Pictures
Director: S .J. Clarkson
MPAA Rating: Rated PG-13 (for violence/action and language)
Runtime: 1 hour and 57 minutes
Screenwriter: Story by Kerem Sanga, Matt Sazama, and Burk Sharpless and Screenplay by Matt Sazama, Burk Sharpless, Claire Parker, and S.J. Clarkson
Starring: Dakota Johnson, Sydney Sweeney, Isabela Merced, Celeste O'Connor, Tahar Rahim, Mike Epps, Emma Roberts, Adam Scott

Synopsis: In a switch from the typical genre, Madame Web tells the standalone origin story of one of Marvel publishing's most enigmatic heroines. The suspense-driven thriller stars Dakota Johnson as Cassandra Webb, a paramedic in Manhattan who develops the power to see the future… and realizes she can use that insight to change it. Forced to confront revelations about her past, she forges a relationship with three young women bound for powerful destinies...if they can all survive a deadly present.

External Links:
-Official website

Related Discussion:
-"Madame Web" News and Discussion
-"Sony's Spider-Man Universe" Movie News & Discussion (Spoilers), Part 2
-"Spider-Man" Movie Sequels/Spin-Offs News & Discussion (Spoilers)

Discuss Madame Web right here at Anime Superhero! What did you think?

 

[Frontier]

This is definitely a movie that exists and has happened.

 

[Neo Ultra Mike]

WARNING: Super long review down below since Frontier probably has the right attitude on how much to say about this, I still like to ramble.

Okay so some lunatic at Sony uberly and unfairly emboldened by the success of the Venom movie really must of went "hey you know what? ANYTHING related to Spider-Man must have the potential to be a franchise let's keep throwing those darts at the wall and see what sticks." Which is really the ONLY way to really explain why this was green lit. Venom again is a super popular character who can have his own adventures and Morbius at least was pretty popular and has that whole vampire hero schitck you could do something with. Hell even Kraven the Hunter especially if you're going to go so hard core I can see making their own film to go in directions you just wouldn't be able to do with a regular Spider-Man flick. But why why why why WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY was Madame Web ever put down as an idea to make a film out of? If you want a female centric film why not retry Black Cat and Silver Sable? Why not focus on just ONE of the three Spider-lady related female heroes who show up here? Hell even that Secret agent Aunt May movie makes sense since the general public would at least know who Aunt May is. Why Madam Web? Again I grew up with the 90's Spider Man animated series so I know Madam Web from there and yeah she's a pretty important character there but important in the "helping guide Spider-Man through vague challenges in order to prepare him for a challenge at the end of the series" but you couldn't do really any action with her because... Madam Web is a paralyzed blind lady with future seeing powers. Why would you try and have THAT be your big focused character in a super hero movie? Besides maybe desperate greed and experimentation, my only other theory is that Madam Web due to her being able to see through the future and her connection with more divine beings like The Beyonder, was Sony's way of maybe trying to have a character they could short cut through the multi verse and connect various other characters together to try and still get that Sinister Six or live action team up of related characters they seem really desperate to bank on. However I get somewhere in the process they were told "no one is going to watch or even really want to make a movie based on that ideal" thus decided to try and make this appear like a proper film to have a director have her vision on this out there idea especially when realizing connnecting it to other properties will be more mocked then rewarded. Which... yeah didn't really work in their favor now that this movie is out and being uberly trashed where it will likely not recoup even the 80 million it cost to make this film. And honestly it really shouldn't as this is NOT a good movie. Probably not the worst of the Sony Spider man related movies but that is not a high bar to clear and there isn't really anything in this movie really worth checking out or going to see.

Okay for starters the emotional core of this movie doesn't work. The whole reason that Cassandra is more emotionally distant and unable to I guess really connect with people is because of some trauma due to the fact her mom died while she was in the Amazon and she always blamed her mom for stupidly wanting to research spiders while she was over 8 months pregnant. Which... is very reasonable honestly anyone would do that. But apparently the whole reason Constance was researching Spiders was because Cassie as a fetus had this terminal disease that if not treated would have killed her within a few months of being born so she was desperate to find those spiders no matter what. And when Cassie uses her Madame Web powers to find that out is able to realize that her mother did love her and help her out but yeah that doesn't really work. For starters, I get why Constance would want to be in the Amazons to get those spiders ASAP and not have to wait the few days a plane trip would take or something like that but really SHE went out when she was obviously really close to giving birth to her daughter on the expedition? Like that's not something you can tell us to take seriously. I hate to say it because as bad a movie as this is and as stupid as it was there, even Spy Kids 4 All The Time in the world at least played 'oh the super awesome agent lady is pregnant but still going on missions" as a JOKE. Not a good joke but that was still not supposed to be taken seriously. But yeah this is the whole dumb idea that gives birth to the entire plot because they needed Constance to about to give birth so that when Ezekiel fatally wounds her these Spider people can help give birth to her... I'm going to have words BTW about the spider people and how kind of stupid and bad at their whole protection/mission they have later trust me on that but that doesn't relate to the emotional core. Which should be really powerful; the desperate lengths a parent is willing to go to ensure that their child is taken care of and doesn't die from a disease they unfairly have thrust on them even if the parent loses themselves. Which spoilers for the One Piece Manga

Spoiler

something done really well with Kuma and Bonney's relationship there

But it doesn't work here because NO TIME is really given to Constance at all. Sans her looking for the Spiders and Simms ranting about how unfair he's been treated before taking the spider and shooting her and yeah then the spider people find Constance and she gives birth. That's all we get of her sans the one flashback that Cassandra sees. You know if she is supposed to go on this emotional journey it should have felt emotional like really track more of what Constance went through (maybe she also lost Cass's father as well so is more determined not to lose her daughter as we don't know what happened to Mr. Webb... yeah that's their last name this is the kind of thing that works better in the comics) and also track Cassie's backstory growing up in an orphanage and eventually becoming a parademic. You know showing her life instead of like bad exposition spoon feeding the apparent bits we really needed to hear that doesn't feel like anything. Because yeah this is the big point and whole arc that Cassandra has to go through and it just feels like nothing because it IS nothing. I don't need movies to have like huge half hour long backstories or whatever to get me to really feel empathy with a character and a connection but I need something to really invest in this relationship especially if that's what matters most and is what gets Cass to really focus on her powers. You know not just empty platitudes but connections and emotions we honestly feel and relate to. That's what makes the Spider-Verse films so powerful but is something all of these SPUMC movies have utterly failed to do and this may be the worst example of that. It just feels so empty when the connection of what a mother went through fulling getting through to her daughter should be this really powerful character moment but just feels phoned in. Like it was on a check list or just done to get to this next section of the story instead of really investing in properly connecting and making you feel Cassie's pain as she overcome this hurdle to learn her powers.

And you know what I just realized why this whole story falls apart? Because they spent way too much of this story not really on Cassie's journey but instead her interaction and build up of Julia, Mattie and Anya. I guess the three girls aren't like the worst (Mattie's attitude can be rather obnoxious especially the "hey let's get up and dance to Toxic because I really like this song even though we're supposed to be laying low from this guy with spider powers trying to kill us) they aren't very distinct either. Julia's the nerdy super apologetic one, Mattie's got attitude and Anya's.... somewhere between there but yeah it was a really bad decision to have a lot of focus of the movie being "Cassie has to pretty much escort these three ladies away so SImms doesn't kill them." So much time is spent on talking about how incredible spider ladies they'll be or that they're more then what they are and... yeah you want to know how much we see of them as these actual spider ladies in the movie? LESS THEN A MINUTE! There's Simms having dreams about them killing him and quick flashes at the end of their forms and that's it. I get how most movies that set up the characters first take awhile to have them suit up but I don't think I've ever seen one where the heroes suit up was less then 30 seconds and it all happens not within the actual current timeline of the movie we're seeing. Even Cassie as Madam Web is really only in that chair blinded in the last minute anyway so even if you want to count her as the big hero you don't see much of that. But yeah trying to be all "oh look how even these most minuscule random connections with people we meet randomly in live matter" pre destined bull crap is really stupid as it's giving you pretty much an entire new cast and focus instead of the lead and support the first part built up. With especially how pointless these three ultimately wind up as and how we don't really even technically see them as super heroes and how it just bloats this movie what they really SHOULD HAVE DONE is have someone ACTUALLY CLOSE with Cassie in the beginning the potential victim or threat that Simms is worried about. It could be Benjamin Parker (and you better believe they force in "great power and responsbility" even sort of connecting it with him as well as Cassie's whole arc in a really lame way) considering how you know the first part was setting up the two having a close friendship working together (not really well as none of their banter even about the fortune cookies was ever funny but again it was THERE at least) so the idea of Ben being the one behind taking down Simms meaning Sims was gunning for him would mean something more for Cassandra. Especially since Cassie's whole arc is supposed to be opening more up to people as you already have her as this amazing paramedic who risks her life for others so much that she practically died and had to be saved due to getting in a car to save someone trapped in there so if you're saying she should really be more open to those around her shouldn't it really be to the people she knows she isolates herself more from. I mean there's this whole big point about her failing to save the captain because she coudln't properly use her powers so thus wouldn't it make sense at the end if she was fully using her developed powers to save one of her dear friends and show off how she more valued that connection? Or you know if you really really REALLY wanted to push the whole spider connection more, why not have the one who takes down Simms revealed to be Peter Parker so Simms wants to kill the kid before he's even born. So then you'd have more of a reason for him to constantly be pursuing Mary Parker instead of the "yeah we know we're the ones this guys is targetting and somehow everytime we go out in public he finds us but we'll ride with you guys instead of staying at the house where he hasn't gotten us in a week" dumb ass plan just done so there can be a climax against Simms. If it's actually "we need Mary at the hospital so she has to leave cause she's about to give birth" that gives a reason to have her open and just potentially raises even more tension plus again does actually relate to Cassandra's social circle more. Maybe that was in the original plans as there's talk of this having been thought of as a potential back door prequel to the Amazing Spider man or MCU Spider man universes (which honestly though really stupid I at least get more of something Sony would do... don't know it would have worked even ignoring timeline issues if they don't have the rights to do stuff in the MCU world but whatever) If you aren't really even going to have the ladies be super spider women/girls who have more then 30 seconds of time as these heroes why focus so much of the narrative on that? I guess for some quick woke points but yeah doesn't work if that wokeness doesn't go anywhere. Maybe also done to give Cassandra someone to take care of but like... Madame Web is supposed to be more this mystic seerer kind of mentor figure. She's not like Barbara Gordon and the spider women aren't the birds of prey. Why go in THAT direction? Because you think early 2000's nostalgia is so retro these days you have to rip that off? I mean that would explain why they played Mis-Teeq's "Scanadlous" in this movie you know the song made for the CATWOMAN soundtrack aka not a song ANY female super hero movie should have in it ever again. Especially if again you aren't going to really have them as heroes. Harley Quinn Birds of Prey at least had action scenes WITH the Birds of Prey which this movie couldn't have at all.

BTW quick note but my god do all the action scenes suckkkkkkkkkkkkk. I remember the director talking about "oooh I like the challenge of having a hero whose ability isn't a more action oriented one but more a sensory one I don't think that's ever been done before" which is honestly a bold face LIE. We saw the whole "using deja vu to give you an edge and change what your fate will be" in Edge of Tomorrow, and hell what about the Robert Downy Jr Sherlock Holmes movie where Sherlock used his Sherlock sense to figure out how things will happen and telling that as an action scene and escalted it in the sequel due to Moriarti having that same sort of power? Like this stuff has been done in action scenes before first off. And I can understand that due to only finally being able to properly use her powers after going to the amazon again did Cassandra properly have full access to those powers but even in the ending scene seemed like her big move was just plowing a car through her enemy (which she already did) setting up firework traps to try and grab a helicpoter down and... sending out spectral projections of herself to help others at once. Nothing in these looked impressive or interesting trying to use over obnoxious audio editing of "oh taking bits from after and before to try and cobble together a better effect" but it not looking impressive or interesting in any way. And that holds especially true for Simms which... wow I'm starting to think the effects in the 70's Spider Man shows be it the CBS or Japanese live action one looked more impressive as this is the limpest weakest looking live action spider man related character with supposed spider abilities ever. Like doesn't Simms have like THIRTY YEARS of Spider crawling experience if he apparently didn't really age thanks to getting that spider and has all of these powers? How is he easily so duped by a lady just ushering someone onto a different train with three other girls and doesn't seem to make the broad leaps or fast climbing that really sell him as a threat? Even when you see those alt futures of him offing Julia, Mattie or Anya it's all done in rather limp ways and nothing looks that impactful. Not even Cassie being stabbed in the diner honestly and man that whole "fight" which BTW is in the trailer and is the most back and forth you see in this movie just doesn't click at all. It's sad when the most impressive practical stuff is actually the opening chases of just Cassie at her job but the actual ending chase with Simms tailing them in the emergency van doesn't have any oomph to it. I still don't know if this is the worst Sony super hero movie overall but you know it is easily the worst in terms of action. Morbius at least had better attempts and connected more at fight scenes then this ever did.

And then there's Simms. First off Ezekiel makes this whole big point when he's shooting all the people on Constance's expedition that "oh no one ever took care of me I had to claw my way up to get anything" and later wanted to keep his power and not die because of how unfair everyone was to him... which we see NOTHING OF! Ugh, I hate to keep making this point but you know in Morbius we SAW Milo/Lucien's backstory and how he was treated by people so I would get why he would turn out so cruel and when given a chance to become a super human he wouldn't give a fig about offing others. This guy is just one of those "oh I'm going to say my life was tough that's my justification" as if us seeing it was either seen as pointless or not needed even though this is our main VILLAIN and you still need to ground the guy to get what he's about. It's the stuff that makes for the best antagonists knowing what makes them tick which you see in The Vulture, Killmonger, Thanos etc and again something even previous Sony movies did, but not this one. Oh also remember when i made a point about the Spider People tribe before? So yeah if they're whole thing is being this secret tribe of amazing warriors who just life in the jungle and helping the people there as they are like an ancient protector spirit group.... why in the hell did they let Simms get away with the spider when it seems one of their big jobs is protecting all the spiders? Like instead they just save Constance by taking them to the pool and allowing her to give birth and... I guess put Cassandra in an orphanage somewhere close by I don't know but again seems like a couple of them could of easily taken out Simms and saved that spider that meant a lot to them. I mean if they're a tribe they could have... like two people with their stronger and faster then people skills take him out and return the spider. Why in the hell did they let him go? is it because they saw "oh wait he eventually dies so we don't have to take care of it.... I mean I guess that happens in 30 something years but eh what can one guy do with our spider for that long?" I get that the point of this tribe is more about Cassandra's backstory and you know they didn't want them to be some actual force who could do anything but it feels really dumb to set them up as this mysterious guardian force but then totally screw up doing any actual guardian work while Simms gets to live 30 years reasonably free except for dreams when he's eventually killed by the other three Spider Women/girls. I will say I do kind of like the idea that his great master plot is "you know I have this actual good gig with these spider powers being well off doing these probably very complicated criminal deals on the side getting mostly whatever I want under the radar and just want to keep doing that and want to ensure I don't die one day from these haunting nightmares I keep having." Maybe if there was more to this guy then just him saying his backstory and he had an actual interesting relationship with the person he tasks to find the women after getting that NSA device (and I guess it being so hard to track people is one of the reasons this took place two decades ago when you could have that kind of technology on us in a snap now... it's a dumb reason but a reason I guess) from that lady at the opera he sexed up and then offed cause.... well Sony movies seem to think super hero /action movie aesthetics of 20/30 years ago are good so why not use that old trope? But yeah if there was actually something to this guy besides just a couple of lines of him just saying his story this would work... again you know if you remove the time spent on the three spider ladies you'd also have time to flesh out this guy's story more you know see where Simms came from, see more what he's doing now, see what he's super desperate to preserve. Especially if the entire ending point is Cassie going "they were never the ones you had to worry about it was me" before she offs him it might mean more but yeah again that's not the movie we got and this comes across as a rather wasteful threat. Simms as a spider guy never looks intimidating and he's never given enough screen time to make a presence and goes out on such a laughable limp note. I usually like longer death bits for villains to fully realize they got what's coming to them as even Pan sort of had that but this one doesn't as yeah so much about him doesn't work.

Which yeah overall is what I have to say about the movie. I will say Johnson's performance is fine and though not that funny especially in the quips to herself that attitude of how she interacted with the other rescue workers and as a loner were fine and I do like the idea of her finding out about her past to make these connections. The problem is that this is trying to force these other characters onto her that really muddles any potential this story had. Harley Quinn Birds of Prey had this problem as well of taking these elements that don't go together but you know at least those were mostly strong enough elements to still make a decent movie. You know that's probably why though it's not my favorite or anything I still do quite like The marvels; there is a reason for those characters and their connections and we at least had other medium to get to know more who they are and what they are about before colliding them. This one though has the barest amount of an interseting idea behind all of it's dumb that it buries with these pointless other spider women that just ruins any potential concept. Maybe that's why to me this may not be the worst as I felt the core concept of Venom and Morbius was more obnoxious and insulting to the characters compared to Madam Web even if this movie has the worst things circling it that drain it down. Either way it's still a bad film not really worth seeing as it's not even so bad it's good sort of bad.

 

[Yojimbo]

2/19: Clarkson confirms there was an end tag.

Budget was $80 million but insiders saying closer to 100.

2/21: Reportedly the 4K/Bluray release is April 23.

 

[wonderfly]

The News Team's Christopher Glennon shared a new review on the front page of AnimeSuperhero.com:

"Review: “Madame Web” Weaves A Sticky, Tangled Movie With Unconnected Threads"​

"Superhero movies today are all about crossovers and multiverses. It’s a blessing when companies like Marvel and DC have so many characters to bring together. Then you have Sony, whose Madame Web had to scrape together a movie with barely recognizable characters from its Spider-Man property.

Sony has been clinging to the Spider-Man franchise harder than Spider-Man sticks to walls, and their entries into the world of cinematic superheroes have been a frustrating glut of Spider-Man adjacent movies. The likes of Venom and Morbius have done what they can with the property they own, and it never turns out to be anything impressive. Madame Web, sadly and unsurprisingly, suffers from the same problem."

Read the full article here.

 

[RoyalRubble]

The movie is available on Digital starting today. The DVD/Blu-Ray release date is April 30.

 

[Yojimbo]

Premieres on Netflix on May 14.