Unconventional or unpopular opinions you have (re: animation)

[Zanneck]

Can I get an Amen? If I see one more thread about how "great" Batman: TAS is I think I'm going to retch.

It's Okay, I always preferred Batman Beyond, in terms of old-school stuff, in that case.

 

[Fone Bone]

Can I get an Amen? If I see one more thread about how "great" Batman: TAS is I think I'm going to retch.

Keep a bucket handy. Those threads are not going away. BTAS is dated NOW. Back then it was revolutionary and that's how people will remember it. And I don't blame them at all. I have good memories too.

 

[user313856]

FACTS & TRUTH Time - if What I made earlier this week was still open, I'd simply say (and I'll say it here, NOW.): NAH - Most cartoons (not all) made in the 10s & today in the still early 20s are much better than most (not all) of whatever the hell I grew up with in the 80s, 90, and 00s COMBINED. Buncha old whiners, I swear. Nostalgia Dorks make me sick. The End.

Can I get an Amen? If I see one more thread about how "great" Batman: TAS is I think I'm going to retch.

I'm trying to delete my account, but I'm getting no reply from the support e-mail in this site.

So, while I don't get any reply about deleting my account, I will talk here.

I really dislike comments like the ones I quoted.

First, the tone is needlessly aggressive.

Second, I really dislike when people state their personal enjoyments of art as absolute truth.

Third, what is wrong with people making sincere threads about how much they love BTAS, or any show really? You are the one who is coming across as a jerk. Is BTAS perfect? No, especially with the amount of episodes they had to make in such a short period of time. The 90s TV environment was better tham previous decades, but still grueling and brutal. Any old TV show will be very uneven in an episode-by-episode basis for this reason. That doesn't mean there isn't still a lot to love and enjoy, and some truly spectacular episodes. But even when BTAS is just being passable or ok, I still enjoy it, such as I've Gog Batman On My Basement. I think there is such a thing as being way overcritical, and this applies to everything really.

Fourth, people who are automatically dismissive of cartoons made today in comparison to past ones are cringe, no doubt (and I love to see the enthusiasm of Frank Thomas and Ollie Johnston, in the last chapter of the book The Illusion Of Life, about the future of animation as a medium, please everyone read that). But I honestly dislike even more the people who are dismissive of the past. If you love anything that happens to be 10 or 15 years old at least, you can bet that there will be people saying "you only love it cause of nostalgia, take off your nostalgia glasses". These comments are common in online discourse, and I despise them more than almost anything (I highly recommend the video "The Nostalgia Goggles Fallacy" on YouTube, it really expresses well a lot of my feelings). My favorite animated TV show ever is Avatar The Last Airbender, and I only watched it as an adult a few years ago (I'm 24 years old). And yet I have encountered people online saying "people love ATLA so much only because of nostalgia".

Fifth, I hate how some people look down upon anything that is goofy, childlike or simple as immature and beneath them. This is pretty common when people are dismissing any beloved kids' show, even the ones with great appeal among all ages. Maturity is not gore or sex. A kids' show can still be dramatically mature and sincere in how it treats its characters, regardless of a supposedly "kiddy" goofy tone. Hey Arnold is for me a million times more mature than your average adult animation sitcom. In many aspects, I think that teenagers and very young adults might be more immature than kids and older adults (above 25 or 30). I also firmly believe that there is nothing wrong tropes or very unoriginal storylines, it's really all about the execution, how you make me care about the characters, and if I can see sincerity and passion.

Random thought: I really want to watch the Pluto anime that has recently come out. I think I will love it!

 

[Fone Bone]

I'm trying to delete my account, but I'm getting no reply from the support e-mail in this site.

So, while I don't get any reply about deleting my account, I will talk here.

I really dislike comments like the ones I quoted.

First, the tone is needlessly aggressive.

Second, I really dislike when people state their personal enjoyments of art as absolute truth.

Third, what is wrong with people making sincere threads about how much they love BTAS, or any show really? You are the one who is coming across as a jerk. Is BTAS perfect? No, especially with the amount of episodes they had to make in such a short period of time. The 90s TV environment was better tham previous decades, but still grueling and brutal. Any old TV show will be very uneven in an episode-by-episode basis for this reason. That doesn't mean there isn't still a lot to love and enjoy, and some truly spectacular episodes. But even when BTAS is just being passable or ok, I still enjoy it, such as I've Gog Batman On My Basement. I think there is such a thing as being way overcritical, and this applies to everything really.

Fourth, people who are automatically dismissive of cartoons made today in comparison to past ones are cringe, no doubt (and I love to see the enthusiasm of Frank Thomas and Ollie Johnston, in the last chapter of the book The Illusion Of Life, about the future of animation as a medium, please everyone read that). But I honestly dislike even more the people who are dismissive of the past. If you love anything that happens to be 10 or 15 years old at least, you can bet that there will be people saying "you only love it cause of nostalgia, take off your nostalgia glasses". These comments are common in online discourse, and I despise them more than almost anything (I highly recommend the video "The Nostalgia Goggles Fallacy" on YouTube, it really expresses well a lot of my feelings). My favorite animated TV show ever is Avatar The Last Airbender, and I only watched it as an adult a few years ago (I'm 24 years old). And yet I have encountered people online saying "people love ATLA so much only because of nostalgia".

Fifth, I hate how some people look down upon anything that is goofy, childlike or simple as immature and beneath them. This is pretty common when people are dismissing any beloved kids' show, even the ones with great appeal among all ages. Maturity is not gore or sex. A kids' show can still be dramatically mature and sincere in how it treats its characters, regardless of a supposedly "kiddy" goofy tone. Hey Arnold is for me a million times more mature than your average adult animation sitcom. In many aspects, I think that teenagers and very young adults might be more immature than kids and older adults (above 25 or 30). I also firmly believe that there is nothing wrong tropes or very unoriginal storylines, it's really all about the execution, how you make me care about the characters, and if I can see sincerity and passion.

Random thought: I really want to watch the Pluto anime that has recently come out. I think I will love it!

You don't need to delete your account. I don't think administrators allow that anyways. You can just stop posting.

 

[[classic swim]]

If you love anything that happens to be 10 or 15 years old at least, you can bet that there will be people saying "you only love it cause of nostalgia, take off your nostalgia glasses"

People with no perception of reality or how to process a lick of anything should not be the ones making those declarations.

But they usually are.

Nostalgia’s such an easy thing to both manipulate and wince at because everyone’s got their own source of comfort. Many defy it just to look cool, and are only afraid of appearing stubborn and unhappy like the rest.

If only we could enjoy whatever we want, without there having to be this constant, trivial culture war attached at all times. Would sure make everyone less miserable, don’t ya think?

 

[The Overlord]

Keep a bucket handy. Those threads are not going away. BTAS is dated NOW. Back then it was revolutionary and that's how people will remember it. And I don't blame them at all. I have good memories too.

I think Batman the animated series has aged well in some ways and aged poorly in others:

Batman the Animated Series: 5 Ways it Aged Well (& 5 Ways It Didn’t)

Batman: The Animated Series is one of the most acclaimed and loved adaptations of Batman of all time. But has it aged well over the years?

www.cbr.com

10 Harsh Realities Of Watching Batman The Animated Series 25 Years After It Ended

Batman: The Animated Series has aged poorly in some areas.

screenrant.com

Batman the animated series lacks some of the kinetic fight scenes you see in TV animation today, it was hampered by cenorship at times and it did not always handle mental illness well.

However, it actually was revolutionary for its time and the passing of time doesn't really change that. I think Batman the animated series and to a lesser degree X-Men the animated series changed the game. Batman the animted series allowed for slower psychological stories, had a greater sense of stakes than most of the cartoons of the 80s and most action cartoons after Batman the animated series definately took notes and both Batman and X-Men got away with stuff that would be unthinkible in the 80s.

I think animation has improved in techiques and a lot of the writing today has made some improvements from the 90s and definately from the 80s, but I think some of the trail blazers from the 90s led the groundwork that later shows built on.

I do think every era has its own gems (I think Real Ghostbusters is the best of the 80s cartoons). Though I can unsterstand some of the campy appeal of some of the other 80s cartoons, as long you acknowledge some of the flaws (like most of those shows being giant toy commericals).


The problem with nostaglia is when the neckbeards complain that some new version of a show is not a carbon copy of the old show, like when they compplained the 2018 She-Ra was not a total copy of the 80s She-Ra. At that point you are holding up the orginal as perfect and saying the new version is inferior just because its different. But lets face it, a carbon copy would be boring, you can just watch the old show at point and demanding all creators bow to some nerd neck beard focus group does not create goood art or entertainment. That is when nostaglia becomes toxic, when it becomes a Xerox machine.

 

[KeldeoKitty]

It’s possible to be nostalgic for works you didn’t actively grow up with. Whether it’s old works you haven’t heard of or newer works. I consider being nostalgic meaning giving you sentimental feelings, not simply watching any cartoon you remember when you were a kid.

I prefer the Moomins over the Smurfs. I heard of Smurfs when I was a kid through Boomerang but didn’t know about Moomins until I was a teen and recently have been seeing a lot of it. I was never big into Smurfs. I’m not into most European characters but Moomins (the books and 1990 show which has a gorgeous soundtrack) I’ve appreciated more because I find it cute and it’s reminiscent of Over the Garden Wall, Summer Camp Island, and Hilda (Which was inspired by Moomins). I wish I grew up with Moomins when I was a kid but the books are rare in the US and none of it’s shows aired here. Moomins is better and more wholesome than just about every preschool show I grew up with such as Caillou, and Jay Jay the Jet Plane.

Also I’ve started like Summer Camp Island a bit more than Harvey Beaks. Harvey was great for a Nick show but since I imported the only DVD of Summer Camp Island I became more attached to it and I find it somewhat cuter and does adventure consistently better.

 

[Pooky]

I love to see the enthusiasm of Frank Thomas and Ollie Johnston, in the last chapter of the book The Illusion Of Life, about the future of animation as a medium, please everyone read that

See also Shamus Culhane in Talking Animals and Other People, his 1986 memoir. He is very harsh on the state of animation a the time, to an extent that I personally think crosses a line into being overly judgemental of people who were only trying to stay employed, but he is very optimistic about the developments in computer animation and where it will go. Whether it lived up to his idealism is a huge question I don't feel like getting into, but I hope he at least got to see Toy Story before he passed in 1996.

(Also I don't think you should delete your account, even if you can, which I don't think you can. You might stop posting for a while because you think you've got nothing to say, but one day you may get into a new thing and have something else you wish to share. Plus deleting your account would also get rid of your post history, I think)

 

[user313856]

Frank Thomas and Ollie Johnston talk about the strong criticisms about the state of animation at the time, but they see all the problems as opportunities. They say that budgets don't allow for another Pinocchio or Fantasia, but we don't need another Pinocchio or Fantasia, they were already made. They talk about limited animation, they really love all the medium can offer.

About BTAS fight scenes, it's well-known that the reason why they radically changed and simplified the artstyle for The New Batman Adventures was to allow for better animation within a TV cartoon's budget, especially in the action scenes.

 

[user313856]

Take a look at letter from Ward Kimball in 1973.

 

[Darklordavaitor]

Second, I really dislike when people state their personal enjoyments of art as absolute truth.

I agree with some of your other points, but especially this. It comes off as weirdly aggressive and hostile to state your opinions as "facts and truths", especially on a frequent basis.

 

[The Overlord]

I got one, I did not love Across the Spider Verse. I thought it was too long, the pacing was too slow and breaking up the story into two parts was mistake. Spot is built up as the main villain and disappears half way through, usually animated films aimed at a family audience has better pacing and is usually a tight 90 minutes. I get annoyed when films go on longer than they should and it's a shame Across the Spider Verse fell into the overindulgences the live action superhero movies fell into. I thought Into the Spider Verse was a way better film.

Don't get wrong, there are great moments in Across the Spider Verse, but there is a lot of stuff that goes no where. The sum of the parts do not equal the whole.

 

[Fone Bone]

I think I'll have a better feel for that movie when Beyond hits. If Miles is able to save his father, and prove to be his own type of Spider-Man not beholden to some hoary outmoded trope, good for both movies. If the moral is Miles' dad needs to die in order for him to be a proper Spider-Man, I'm gonna say both films suck. As it was, not knowing which way the cliffhanger was leaning left me very unfulfilled. Part of me understands why the film got raves, and the other part doesn't understand it at all. It's unfinished, is what it is.

 

[The Overlord]

I think I'll have a better feel for that movie when Beyond hits. If Miles is able to save his father, and prove to be his own type of Spider-Man not beholden to some hoary outmoded trope, good for both movies. If the moral is Miles' dad needs to die in order for him to be a proper Spider-Man, I'm gonna say both films suck. As it was, not knowing which way the cliffhanger was leaning left me very unfulfilled. Part of me understands why the film got raves, and the other part doesn't understand it at all. It's unfinished, is what it is.

I feel like a movie should stand on its own, rather than relying on a part two to make it worthwhile. I saw most Mission Impossible movies in theaters, I did not see the latest one in theatres because it was a part one and was 2:45 hours long. The original Star Wars trilogy and the Lord of the Rings had an ongoing story, but each movie told a satisfying tale. I want the same from every movie I see, live action or animated.

 

[Zanneck]

I got one, I did not love Across the Spider Verse. I thought it was too long, the pacing was too slow and breaking up the story into two parts was mistake. Spot is built up as the main villain and disappears half way through, usually animated films aimed at a family audience has better pacing and is usually a tight 90 minutes. I get annoyed when films go on longer than they should and it's a shame Across the Spider Verse fell into the overindulgences the live action superhero movies fell into. I thought Into the Spider Verse was a way better film.

Don't get wrong, there are great moments in Across the Spider Verse, but there is a lot of stuff that goes no where. The sum of the parts do not equal the whole.

I'm more annoyed that there's a part three to all of this at all. This should all have been done in just 2 films and that's it. There is no guarantee movie # 3 in this series is gonna be any good, no matter how good it aims to look & move, in the end, because of stunts like THIS.....

And I've only just seen Across The Spider-Verse just yesterday - yeah, not too pleased with this development, in the end. Damn shame, I've been gunning for so long to see this movie once I had some actual time to kill, too.

 

[prpis]

Felt like they stayed too long in that Spider-man hub which wasn't all that needed. It really slowed things down.

 

[harry580]

yeah, as much I love this movie, the flashing animation hurts my eyes, not to mention the rumors over the animators being tortured while making this movie

 

[user313856]

They could tone down how many times they do the characters glitching, even though it makes sense from a narrative standpoint. Nevertheless, I love how the film developed Gwen, and there is no denying the raw, insane and absurd creativity and beauty on display in the visuals and animation. I love how unapologetic it is in trying to showcase as many awesome visuals as possible, no restraint at all, though I can see why that wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea. It can be overwhelming, sometimes you wish they would linger more on certain shots, to better take in all of the wonderful art they crafted in this movie. Is the film self-indulgent? Yes, and proudly so. I always have a level of respect and admiration for that level of passion and commitment. I'm always pro-artistic expression above all else.

Perhaps the reason why these are two movies rather than one is not because they couldn't fit the story in one movie, but because they wanted two movies to fully realize all of their ideas for wildly different animation and visuals. On those departments, the film has already cemented itself as an animation landmark. It's insanely impressive, it's truly at the vanguard of CGI animation, while also being a natural consequence of how realistic CGI has been perfected and normalized to a level that strong stylization is the way to go and stand out. That unique human touch and identity. In a way, this reflects the development and trends of all artforms really. We find more art in fantasy rather than vulgar realism (the "live-action" Lion King epithomizes the latter).

I disagree that each Lord Of The Rings movie stands on its own. I watched them with my sister-on-law, and perhaps the most common complaint she made is that the movies didn't stand on their own, unlike The Empire Strikes Back.

And I'm tired of the mods of the site not replying any of my e-mail requests to delete my account, God damn.

 

[The Overlord]

They could tone down how many times they do the characters glitching, even though it makes sense from a narrative standpoint. Nevertheless, I love how the film developed Gwen, and there is no denying the raw, insane and absurd creativity and beauty on display in the visuals and animation. I love how unapologetic it is in trying to showcase as many awesome visuals as possible, no restraint at all, though I can see why that wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea. It can be overwhelming, sometimes you wish they would linger more on certain shots, to better take in all of the wonderful art they crafted in this movie. Is the film self-indulgent? Yes, and proudly so. I always have a level of respect and admiration for that level of passion and commitment. I'm always pro-artistic expression above all else.

Perhaps the reason why these are two movies rather than one is not because they couldn't fit the story in one movie, but because they wanted two movies to fully realize all of their ideas for wildly different animation and visuals. On those departments, the film has already cemented itself as an animation landmark. It's insanely impressive, it's truly at the vanguard of CGI animation, while also being a natural consequence of how realistic CGI has been perfected and normalized to a level that strong stylization is the way to go and stand out. That unique human touch and identity. In a way, this reflects the development and trends of all artforms really. We find more art in fantasy rather than vulgar realism (the "live-action" Lion King epithomizes the latter).

I disagree that each Lord Of The Rings movie stands on its own. I watched them with my sister-on-law, and perhaps the most common complaint she made is that the movies didn't stand on their own, unlike The Empire Strikes Back.

And I'm tired of the mods of the site not replying any of my e-mail requests to delete my account, God damn.

I think you are misunderstood what I think the overindulgences in Across the Spider Verse are.

That movie is looks amazing, but that movie did not need to be over 2 hours and almost everything that happened after Miles escapes from the Spider Society is drawn out and superfluous, that conversation between Miles and his mother near the end of the film is a drawn out red hearing. If this movie is a part one, the story and pacing should have been tighter. The movie needed to trim some fat somewhere.

And I completely disagree that Lord of the Rings doesn't deliver satisfying movie in all 3 parts.

 

[Silverstar]

And I'm tired of the mods of the site not replying any of my e-mail requests to delete my account, God damn.

Your account doesn't need to be deleted; just stop using it. Stop posting and it'll just go away. Also, it might be better to keep your account open in case you one day change your mind and decide you want to post again.