What do you think modern adult animation?

[Fone Bone]

I love My Adventures With Superman. It checks off many of the boxes you are talking about. But it was not exactly created for adults, even if it first aired on Adult Swim.

 

[The Overlord]

I'm not saying we shouldn't have those things. I'm saying we shouldn't have ONLY those things. Western Animation for adults is struggling, because unlike anime in Japan, which has various target audiences and genres, it all seems to be made for bitter males. I'm a male, I'm sometimes bitter, so I get the necessity there. What I want is the variety. I'm glad you enjoy Arcane. It sounds great! I want to be allowed to enjoy something different. Why aren't I?

I think there is some validity in what you say, I think there is a shrinking animation market for the 6-11 range, which could animation market could underserved at the moment, which is a shame because catering to either toddlers or 18-49-year-old males doesn't allow for newer fans to come in and become fans of the medium. I don't think it helps that after growing out of the preschool shows, kids just start watching unboxing videos on YouTube rather than TV animation, but that's a harder question to address. It's not just a lack of content problem, it's how animation can capture the attention of kids who spend most of their time on YouTube or Tick Tock? Heck, I am a middle-aged man and I spend most of my entertainment on YouTube at this point.

However, I don't think undermines the artistic value of the current batch of adult animated series that are trying to tell dramatic stories.

Maybe we need more romance and women geared cartoons in America. It does seem like the adult action cartoons so far have only attracted the "nerd" crowd rather than the mainstream crowd just as comics did when they went more adult. I was kinda shocked Primal got a parody in the Simpsons when it seemed like Primal was an niche cartoon only geeks watched.

I think another problem is no more general audience in the US, at this point the media landscape is so fractured you can't have something like Turtlemania from the 80s-90s or have people all discuss Seinfeld at the watercooler at the office the next day. Most stuff today only appeals to niches.

 

[Goldstar!]

Here's the thing, as thought-provoking as Bloom County and Doonesbury often were, they were enjoyable. They were funny. The shows you are describing sound like total downers instead. Is that what adults want? To be feel bad? I never agreed to that.

Can I get an "Amen"?

Why does all Western adult animated drama need to be dark at all? I never get a satisfactory explanation to this. We can argue about the quality, but I'm asking something entirely different: Why does all of it NEED to be dark? What purpose does it serve?

^^This. This right here is precisely my problem with modern adult animation. Why does every cartoon for adults have to be dark, bleak, ugly, unpleasant, violent and crude? And why are comedies inevitably dismissed by adults as being "kid stuff"? I'm an adult, and I don't find bleak and dark cartoons to be entertaining at all. I like to laugh and smile and feel good. Shows like Kibo and the Wonderbeasts, F is for Family, Hazbin Hotel, Helluva Boss and Unicorn Wars don't work for me because I don't feel better after they're over. Adults like to feel good also. I'll watch the news if I want to be depressed. I watch cartoons to feel GOOD!

If you get something from these shows, that's great, but I personally don't need to watch something dark and edgy drama in order fell like a grown-up. I'm not saying that dark cartoons shouldn't exists, but it shouldn't just be that and nothing else.

 

[PicardMan]

I think another problem is no more general audience in the US, at this point the media landscape is so fractured you can't have something like Turtlemania from the 80s-90s or have people all discuss Seinfeld at the watercooler at the office the next day. Most stuff today only appeals to niches.

I keep hearing this argument that streaming has fractured television viewing to the point where there is no such thing as mainstream TV anymore, but I wonder how the 2010s "big four" television series, The Walking Dead, Game of Thrones, Stranger Things, and The Big Bang Theory seemed close to the mega mainstreamness of the aforementioned TMNT and Seinfeld. Even if someone has never seen an episode, people are aware of them via pop culture osmosis and know Bazinga, Winter is Coming, 11 likes Eggos, and Daryl is a really cool guy. In the 2020s, it seems like we don't have mega mainstream "pop culture osmosis" shows like we did from the 50s-2010s. That would make Rick and Morty the last mainstream cartoon were we define mainstream as something so ingrained in pop culture that even people who who have never seen it know Rick turns into a pickle in that one episode. Streaming's destruction of the "mainstream" in both animation and live action seemed like a gradual and not immediate process. Now as to whether the destruction of "mainstream" cartoon is good or bad for the medium is another question entirely I am not sure what the correct answer is.

 

[Goldstar!]

Now, we have a choice between adult comedy cartoons and adult drama cartoons when in the past, comedy was the only option. It is okay for people to prefer adult comedy, but I don't want to go back to the status quo of comedy being the only choice.

Especially when the only animated comedies tailored for adults are basic crap like Family Guy, South Park and Big Mouth. Why can't we have another Looney Tunes or Rocko's Modern Life? Heck, I'd even settle for something like Rocky and Bullwinkle.

Look at live action TV shows, we allow everything from the Wire, Breaking Bad, Sopranos to whatever kidcom nonsense we see on Nickelodeon and Disney.

Well, I don't care for the live action kidcoms on either channel, but I'd rather watch a Space Ghost: Coast to Coast marathon than watch one episode of The Wire or Breaking Bad. I don't know what that says about me, but there you are.

EDIT: Contrary to how I made it sound, there are some adult cartoons that I do like. Duckman and Mission Hill were good. Unfortunately, the latter was cancelled after a single season. The Oblongs wasn't great, but it had its moments. I still enjoy the early seasons of Aqua Teen Hunger Force and Sealab 2021. Futurama was good, until the show's fans insisted on constantly bringing it back. Does every show created by Matt Groening have to be a zombie that refuses to stay dead? Let Futurama end, already!

 

[The Overlord]

I keep hearing this argument that streaming has fractured television viewing to the point where there is no such thing as mainstream TV anymore, but I wonder how the 2010s "big four" television series, The Walking Dead, Game of Thrones, Stranger Things, and The Big Bang Theory seemed close to the mega mainstreamness of the aforementioned TMNT and Seinfeld. Even if someone has never seen an episode, people are aware of them via pop culture osmosis and know Bazinga, Winter is Coming, 11 likes Eggos, and Daryl is a really cool guy. In the 2020s, it seems like we don't have mega mainstream "pop culture osmosis" shows like we did from the 50s-2010s. That would make Rick and Morty the last mainstream cartoon were we define mainstream as something so ingrained in pop culture that even people who who have never seen it know Rick turns into a pickle in that one episode. Streaming's destruction of the "mainstream" in both animation and live action seemed like a gradual and not immediate process. Now as to whether the destruction of "mainstream" cartoon is good or bad for the medium is another question entirely I am not sure what the correct answer is.

Oh sure, my point is you don't have the same monoculture you had in the 80s and 90s. I think some of this was inevitable with the way technology has changed entertainment in general.

Especially when the only animated comedies tailored for adults are basic crap like Family Guy, South Park and Big Mouth. Why can't we have another Looney Tunes or Rocko's Modern Life? Heck, I'd even settle for something like Rocky and Bullwinkle.

Well, I don't care for the live action kidcoms on either channel, but I'd rather watch a Space Ghost: Coast to Coast marathon than watch one episode of The Wire or Breaking Bad. I don't know what that says about me, but there you are.

That just says your tastes are different from mine. I have nothing against Space Ghost: Coast to Coast, though I never watched it much because it came to Canada way later than it was released in the US.

I remember the Brak Show, that was fun.

EDIT: Contrary to how I made it sound, there are some adult cartoons that I do like. Duckman and Mission Hill were good. Unfortunately, the latter was cancelled after a single season. The Oblongs wasn't great, but it had its moments. I still enjoy the early seasons of Aqua Teen Hunger Force and Sealab 2021. Futurama was good, until the show's fans insisted on constantly bringing it back. Does every show created by Matt Groening have to be a zombie that refuses to stay dead? Let Futurama end, already!

What would you say is the last comedic cartoon released that you really liked?

Can I get an "Amen"?


^^This. This right here is precisely my problem with modern adult animation. Why does every cartoon for adults have to be dark, bleak, ugly, unpleasant, violent and crude? And why are comedies inevitably dismissed by adults as being "kid stuff"? I'm an adult, and I don't find bleak and dark cartoons to be entertaining at all. I like to laugh and smile and feel good. Shows like Kibo and the Wonderbeasts, F is for Family, Hazbin Hotel, Helluva Boss and Unicorn Wars don't work for me because I don't feel better after they're over. Adults like to feel good also. I'll watch the news if I want to be depressed. I watch cartoons to feel GOOD!

Except people like stuff like horror movies or really sad dramas.

Horror movies are one of the consistently well-performing genres of film that does well at the theatres.

I want to see ''Zone of Interest'' sometime in the future, that is not a fun film, but I think it would be a powerful film to see. I also like True Crime and WW2 documentaries, but neither of these genres are fun per say, but both are extremely popular.

People like stuff that emotionally affecting, not just happy emotions, but emotions like fear or sadness can be powerful and create attachments to works of art.

I am not saying people don't like or need comedies or other lighter fare, but some of the darker stuff is popular for a reason.

If you get something from these shows, that's great, but I personally don't need to watch something dark and edgy drama in order fell like a grown-up. I'm not saying that dark cartoons shouldn't exists, but it shouldn't just be that and nothing else.

 

[wonderfly]

I like the renewed wave of action cartoons, but why do they have to be "adult action cartoons"?

I want more "Justice League" and "Samurai Jack", not "Blue Eyed Samurai" and "Invincible"

And I have a fear about the upcoming "Batman: Caped Crusader" being more "Grimdark", when all I really wanted was a continuation of "Batman: The Animated Series". Yes, "children's cartoons" can still be edgy. I want more Gargoyles, but not if they turn it into "Games of Thrones".

 

[PicardMan]

I like the renewed wave of action cartoons, but why do they have to be "adult action cartoons"?

I do think that the action cartoon market has permanently shifted from kids to "geeks." It is interesting to note that Gargoyles didn't need gore or F bombs to engage an adult audience as there was no such thing as adult action cartoons in 1994. Blue Eye Samurai, Primal, Arcane, Invincible are all great series even if it does seem like they are trying to engage with as much transgressive content as possible to prove that it's okay to watch as an adult. It would be cool to have a genuine all ages action cartoon that both kids and adults can watch and My Adventures with Superman seems to fit that bill. DC and Marvel will probably continue to make all ages cartoons at least, and Transformers and Ninja Turtles will still exist for all ages action cartoons, but it seems like Jurassic World: Camp Cretaceous is the swan song for kids action cartoons outside of superhero and toy franchises.

 

[Goldstar!]

What would you say is the last comedic cartoon released that you really liked?

Probably Justice League. That's the closest that I want to get to animated drama. JL was serious, but not overtly moody and depressing. The overall tone was optimistic, for the most part.

Except people like stuff like horror movies or really sad dramas.

Horror movies are one of the consistently well-performing genres of film that does well at the theatres.

I never saw the appeal, myself. I would never pay to watch a horror movie in a theatre unless I'm with friends and they want to see it. And as for dramas, like I said before, I'll watch the news if I want to be depressed. I know that my views aren't popular, but I like what I like.

 

[The Overlord]

I like the renewed wave of action cartoons, but why do they have to be "adult action cartoons"?

I want more "Justice League" and "Samurai Jack", not "Blue Eyed Samurai" and "Invincible"

And I have a fear about the upcoming "Batman: Caped Crusader" being more "Grimdark", when all I really wanted was a continuation of "Batman: The Animated Series". Yes, "children's cartoons" can still be edgy. I want more Gargoyles, but not if they turn it into "Games of Thrones".

That is the big concern I have, that we have a shrinking middle ground of action cartoons for kids. I like these dramatic cartoons that cater to my tastes, but we need stuff for the younger set.

Probably Justice League. That's the closest that I want to get to animated drama. JL was serious, but not overtly moody and depressing. The overall tone was optimistic, for the most part.



I never saw the appeal, myself. I would never pay to watch a horror movie in a theatre unless I'm with friends and they want to see it. And as for dramas, like I said before, I'll watch the news if I want to be depressed. I know that my views aren't popular, but I like what I like.

Oh sure, but you can see why people may like stuff like horror films and powerful dramas.

Ultimately, people want works of art that affect them emotionally and that is in terms of every emotion. Happiness, sadness, fear, etc, anything that gets a real emotional reaction out of someone will always stick more with them than something that creates nothing in the viewer. The worst thing a work of fiction can be is forgettable or dull, it brings nothing out in you and you will forget it in short order.

I saw a review of X-Men 97 that made them sad, but they did not hate the work for creating that emotion, they felt it was a powerful work for doing so:

 

[Goldstar!]

To speak the plain truth, X-Men '97 is starting to lose me with the non-stop gloom and doom. If the tone is only going to get darker from here, then that'll be the jumping off point for me.

 

[thisithis]

To be fair, there is a fair amount of class politics social commentary in Arcane. I think Arcane did some great character work too. I think Arcane is a work of art. I also think there are some interesting of social commentary in X-Men 97, I don't want to deep into that here. I don't DOTA is the strongest series ever, but there is an emotional impact when the Invoker lost his daughter and the righteousness of his desire for revenge. I think some of the emotional beats in Hazbin Hotel work, often because it's surrounded by darker material. I would not recommend this stuff for everyone but I like it.

But then again, I am fan of the works of Paul Verhoeven, though not all of his work. I feel like something like Verhoeven's works can seem rather juvenile on the surface, but has a deeper message underneath.

To be fair most of the politics in X-Men 97 that came from the original X-Men cartoon was mostly taken from the late writer Michael Edens whose work has been crapped on before his passing from cancer and not from Disany much. Mostly Disney didn't seem to pay him any tribute I guess. Before Michael Edens's original X-Men, he was the head writer of Exosquad in season one, and in season two he was the showrunner. Arcane even took Exosquad's first season splitting three storylines into three parts with multiple episodes, Exosquad did this by having 5 EPs be the first storyline and 4 for the other 2 storylines, and Arcane was 3 EPs of all three storylines. after X-Men, he seemed to be stuck doing shows like Sonic Underground. He apparently died regretting not finishing Exosquad's main story. And sadly no one even cares about Exosquad in any shape or form.

 

[JMTV]

I think there is a shrinking animation market for the 6-11 range, which could animation market could underserved at the moment, which is a shame because catering to either toddlers or 18-49-year-old males doesn't allow for newer fans to come in and become fans of the medium.

I get that the preschoolers and adults are the marketable demographic, but that doesn't mean kids shouldn't have any shows for them right now.

I don't think it helps that after growing out of the preschool shows, kids just start watching unboxing videos on YouTube rather than TV animation, but that's a harder question to address. It's not just a lack of content problem, it's how animation can capture the attention of kids who spend most of their time on YouTube or Tick Tock? Heck, I am a middle-aged man and I spend most of my entertainment on YouTube at this point.

Heck, I'm in my mid-20's, and I spend most of my time watching YouTube than TV at this point. Guess I can relate.

Honestly, I think it's because the executives greenlight animated projects for TV felt the need to fall back on the market research and standards and practices rather than let the creators to tell their stories they want to tell. And their marketing doesn't help either as they were talking down to kids rather than raising them up. That's the main reason why kids goes to YouTube is because there is no filter, and no restrictions.

Yet, the executives don't realized that there is still a market for kids 6-11 shows, but they don't want to take that risks as they want to cut costs as much as possible.

So here's another harder question, how can the executives can get the kids 6-11 audience back when they are ones for not greenlighting anything new in the first place?

Ultimately, people want works of art that affect them emotionally and that is in terms of every emotion. Happiness, sadness, fear, etc, anything that gets a real emotional reaction out of someone will always stick more with them than something that creates nothing in the viewer. The worst thing a work of fiction can be is forgettable or dull, it brings nothing out in you and you will forget it in short order.

Good point. At least with a bad product, you remember it being bad. As opposed to a forgettable product, you don't remember anything about them.

 

[PicardMan]

There is one factor not brought up here, and that is that kids like the gory content and are watching gory cartoons. Japan can make something like Demon Slayer, which is a very graphic and very silly cartoon for children. That is what I hear today's kids are watching. I do know that battle shonen stereotypically has brooding angst, and many modern series like Jujutsu Kaisen still have that angst, but Demon Slayer feels tonally like a bright and cheery kids show. America will never make a gory kids show, but that is what I hear this generation of kids wants.

 

[JMTV]

There is one factor not brought up here, and that is that kids like the gory content and are watching gory cartoons. Japan can make something like Demon Slayer, which is a very graphic and very silly cartoon for children. That is what I hear today's kids are watching. I do know that battle shonen stereotypically has brooding angst, and many modern series like Jujutsu Kaisen still have that angst, but Demon Slayer feels tonally like a bright and cheery kids show. America will never make a gory kids show, but that is what I hear this generation of kids wants.

I see. I mean, those type of stuff are not my cup of tea personally, but I can understand kids would love to get a kick out of gory stuff.

 

[Space Cadet]

There is one factor not brought up here, and that is that kids like the gory content and are watching gory cartoons. Japan can make something like Demon Slayer, which is a very graphic and very silly cartoon for children. That is what I hear today's kids are watching. I do know that battle shonen stereotypically has brooding angst, and many modern series like Jujutsu Kaisen still have that angst, but Demon Slayer feels tonally like a bright and cheery kids show. America will never make a gory kids show, but that is what I hear this generation of kids wants.

That's a good point. Even though Japan has gotten a bit stricter with shows aimed towards younger audiences compared to the 80's and 90's, shonen shows like Demon Slayer are considered adult shows in America. We won't be seeing Happy Meal toys for the show like they did in Japan.

 

[PicardMan]

One thing I am wondering about is if dramatic adult cartoons will ever lose their stigma. Action cartoons, be they kid or adult seem to be stigmatized as nerd stuff. I remember in high school a lot of my friends said they hated anime because much of it was serious and they believed cartoons are supposed to be funny. Now that non comedy adult cartoons exist, they seem to be in the same boat adult comic books are in, ignored and shunned by the mainstream. Normies love the Walking Dead when it's a live action TV show, but not as a comic. Would these cartoons need a live action adaptation to be seen as legitimate? Like a live action Primal?

 

[Space Cadet]

One thing I am wondering about is if dramatic adult cartoons will ever lose their stigma. Action cartoons, be they kid or adult seem to be stigmatized as nerd stuff. I remember in high school a lot of my friends said they hated anime because much of it was serious and they believed cartoons are supposed to be funny. Now that non comedy adult cartoons exist, they seem to be in the same boat adult comic books are in, ignored and shunned by the mainstream. Normies love the Walking Dead when it's a live action TV show, but not as a comic. Would these cartoons need a live action adaptation to be seen as legitimate? Like a live action Primal?

The shows don't need a live-action counterpart to be considered "legitimate" because they already are legit. But for certain people, the answer is yes. They either don't like animation in general or they only watch comedy stuff. So, making a live-action adaptation would work for them. I'm sure there are people who are fans of the live-action One Piece show or the newest Avatar: TLA adaptation and they won't touch the original animated series. I just don't know how big that audience is compared to others.

 

[JMTV]

One thing I am wondering about is if dramatic adult cartoons will ever lose their stigma. Action cartoons, be they kid or adult seem to be stigmatized as nerd stuff. I remember in high school a lot of my friends said they hated anime because much of it was serious and they believed cartoons are supposed to be funny. Now that non comedy adult cartoons exist, they seem to be in the same boat adult comic books are in, ignored and shunned by the mainstream. Normies love the Walking Dead when it's a live action TV show, but not as a comic. Would these cartoons need a live action adaptation to be seen as legitimate? Like a live action Primal?

I don't think dramatic adult cartoons will ever lose their stigma or we need a live action adaptation or whatever, we just want good shows.

 

[PicardMan]

I don't think dramatic adult cartoons will ever lose their stigma or we need a live action adaptation or whatever, we just want good shows.

Thinking about comics, if forums existed in the 1980s, I imagine this kind of discussion going on, "Hey, that Alan Moore dude is elevating comic books to artistic heights never seen before. Surely now comic books will soon be seen as a legitimate artform and we can read them without being branded as social outcasts." We are in the year 2024 and the comic book medium has still not lost any of its stigma. I guess dramatic cartoons will still have stigma 40 years from now. At least it seems like animation has one advantage over comic books, in that there is an exception to the stigma in adult comedy cartoons. Animation has The Simpsons, Family Guy, South Park, Bob's Burgers, and Rick and Morty, but there aren't any comics that it's okay to like. I guess the lesson is, as badly as animation is taken as a medium, comics have it worse.