Fresh Question #2 - American Animation VS Japanese Animation

[Zero Angel]

Re: I'll just copy this from the OTHER anime/cartoon debate I was in.

Originally posted by Eidan
I've said it once and I'll say it again. Western animation is better than anime...IMO. Why? First of all, anime isn't funny. Most comedic animes have nothing more than prat falls and male character surrounded by attractive women who, for some ungodly reason, refuses to sleep with any of them. Its as though satire doesn't exist in Japan. As you all know, that is quite different here in the West.

i must say i like the fact that you added the little warning in there about western animation being better in your own opinion. i think that there is a few faults to what you said...IMO, but i think that you are looking at a small amount of the comedy used in anime when you make a reference to the one guy/mulitiple females anime type. have you seen GTO? how about Excel Saga? these are just two references that break that mold fairly well. neither of these have their comedy based on prat falls nor outlandish relationships. one of them is a parody/satire and the other is a show more similar to Boston Commons. both are hilarious.

Originally posted by Eidan
Next, anime action. Usually anime triumphs in this category, but it is usually bogged down by melodramatic dialogue in an attempt to hype the moment, and even worse, sophmoric romances (how many times does the effimate samurai have to save his damsel in distress, or how many times has the leading lady just started busting out crying as she watched the man she loved fight when he most likely wouldn't win?). It all really gets old after a while. To me, Western action cartoons usually keep things down to earth. No snappy one liners from the main villain, no "the two swordsman dash toward each other...CLANG...they both stand still, and after several seconds of doing nothing...the bad guy falls to the ground" (how many times have we seen that crap), and in most Western action cartoons, the woman are rarely if ever portrayed as these emotionally fragile creatures that must always be saved. Not to mention that Western dialogue is just more mature. Anyone who has seen the Batman episode, "I Am the Night" would agree completey. Hell, if anyone saw most of Beast Wars, Gargoyles, Dr. Katz, Home Movies, Simpsons, Invasion America, or even Animaniacs would agree.

eh...here you have some fairly argueable stuff. as for the action mentality, have you seen Kenshin? this is a really great show for the sword duels. why? because they are based on actual sword techniques and styles used IRL. and you cant possibly tell me that there has ever been a better dog fight scene in animation then the sequences from Macross Plus. for culture, the japanese have a big issue with females. though that entire commentary of females being presented as frail is moot when compared to a show like Slayers where the main character is a female and most times everyone needs protection from her. mature conversation? sure those shows have some pretty mature conversation to them and sure perhaps they have some great writers but for some anime you have just got to be smart to get the complex ideas. an easy example here is SE Lain. and yes i have seen all of the shows (minus Invasion America) and i have seen quite a few episodes of each.

Originally posted by Eidan
Next, Western animation has a tendency to do NEW things with the art of animation. They try revolutionary concepts, and animation in the world today would not be what it is without western cartoonist..

not always true. computer effects in animation had already been toyed with in anime before things like Pixar existed. Masamune Shirow has been using digitatl technology as his paint brush now for about 10 years. Pixar released Toy Story when? Cel styles and concepts of frame animation are ground breaking in japan, look at Akira and what it did to the cel animation style back in '88. a style i must add that has been adopted by Disney in certain animation sequences.

Originally posted by Eidan
Who gets credit for the first animated short? Westerners.
The first animated short with sound? Westerners (go Disney).
The first animated/live action short? Westerners.
The first animated movie? Westerners (go Disney).
The first animated television series? Westerners.
The first animated/live action movies? Westerners (Disney again).
The first animated/computer generated movies? Westerners.
The first computer generated animated series? Westerners (go Mainframe).
The first computer generated movie? Westerners (go Pixar).
The first computer generated/live back drop movie? Westerners (that wacky Disney again).

i dont like listes very much but i feel i will comment on them as number indicates.

4) i hate to contradict here but when was the first animated show put on american tv? i mean actual running show...not shorts. it better have been before Tetsuro Atom.

5) again im not so sure how accurate you are on this one...Roger Rabbit was what? '88? '89? have you ever heard of Twillight of the Cochroaches?

Originally posted by Eidan
See what I mean? To say that you don't know how Western animation influenced anime is somewhat laughable. Anime today wouldn't be what it is if it weren't for classic cartoon characters like Felix the Cat and of course, the legendary Betty Boop.

no body is saying that anime didnt get its initial start without inspiration from western animation...look at the eyes of the characters in anime. that is a trademark made big by early shorts done here in the US with cartoons. the thing is that it has now come full circle...look at shows like Gargoyles and Batman. yes they are mature themed shows that have a style much more high grade then what you would ussually see. do you know what that style of story telling and animation was inspired by? anime. recently Disney did an animated movie called Atlantis, and im not saying it ripped off Nadia...no...they were both based on 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea so the comparisons are natural but the style of direction and characters that they used for the movie was something a kin to anime styled direction.

overall i think your view points are some what knowledgable but you have a closed stance it seems to somethings.

 

[Eidan]

First is not synonymous with best

I don't remember saying it was.

And if you think all anime comedies are Tenchi-clones and all the dramas are like Rurouni Kenshin, I don't think you've watched very much anime. Go hunt down Excel Saga, Slayers, Legend of Black Heaven, Serial Experiments Lain, Soul Taker, Boogiepop Phantom, or NieA Under 7 for a little more variety, eh?

With the exception of NieA Under 7 and Boogiepop Phantom, I've seen all the shows you have mentioned. And with the exception of Serial Experiments Lain, I thought they all sucked.

i think that you are looking at a small amount of the comedy used in anime when you make a reference to the one guy/mulitiple females anime type.

I gave the relationship comparison because it is a common site in anime. One that annoys me.

have you seen GTO? how about Excel Saga? these are just two references that break that mold fairly well.

Haven't seen GTO, have seen Excel Saga. What was so humorous about it?

one of them is a parody/satire and the other is a show more similar to Boston Commons. both are hilarious.

Boston Commons? You mean that pitiful little sitcom that got cancelled, transferred to USA in reruns, then got cancelled again? The same Boston Commons that centered around the main character's crush on this blonde woman (who also played in Two Guys, a Girl, and a Pizza Place), and complete inabilty to just tell her he felt about her? Is this what your talking about? Is this...comedy? Well, I tell you right now that I've found Sopranos episodes to be funnier than anything offered by Excel Saga, or any anime I've seen for that matter.

eh...here you have some fairly argueable stuff. as for the action mentality, have you seen Kenshin?

Yes. I thought the OAV was a lot better than the series. The series was filled with stupid moments where the dramatic tension was broken by some idiotic face (usually made by Kenshin), and Kaoru's constant screaming at him. I'm there are a lot of self-proclaimed otakus who thought this was hilarious. I myself was laughing.

for culture, the japanese have a big issue with females. though that entire commentary of females being presented as frail is moot when compared to a show like Slayers where the main character is a female and most times everyone needs protection from her.

Please. Sure in Slayers the female characters kick quite a bit of ass, but at the same time they are treated like sexual objects. How much clevage can be seen in your average Slayers episode? How much fan service is delivered? It seems as though even if women are protrayed as strong, the Japanese find a way to objectify them. Pitiful if you ask me.

mature conversation? sure those shows have some pretty mature conversation to them and sure perhaps they have some great writers but for some anime you have just got to be smart to get the complex ideas.

Please. A complex plot and mature dialogue are two different things. You can have some one of the most confusing, intricate plots in the world and still have dialogue that seems as though it was written by a 13 year old. And I have seen Serial Experiment Lain, I must say, it is one of the few exceptional animes I've seen.

not always true. computer effects in animation had already been toyed with in anime before things like Pixar existed. Masamune Shirow has been using digitatl technology as his paint brush now for about 10 years. Pixar released Toy Story when?

Pixar was working on computer generated animation since the early 80's, long before Toy Story was ever released.

Cel styles and concepts of frame animation are ground breaking in japan, look at Akira and what it did to the cel animation style back in '88. a style i must add that has been adopted by Disney in certain animation sequences.

Please. You can see cel animation in Disney classics like The Little Mermaid, Oliver & Company, The Black Cauldron, and even The Aristocats.

i hate to contradict here but when was the first animated show put on american tv? i mean actual running show...not shorts. it better have been before Tetsuro Atom.

I believe it's a toss up between Bosco, Betty Boop, Felix, or Popeye.

again im not so sure how accurate you are on this one...Roger Rabbit was what? '88? '89? have you ever heard of Twillight of the Cochroaches?

Who said anything about Roger Rabbit?

There were live action/animated shorts and movies long before Roger Rabbit ever came out. There is a classic WB cartoon with Porkey Pig drving about the Warner Bros. studio lot (the name escapes me), and there's a classic movie (Pete's Dragon I believe was the name) that was released in the 60's. Roger Rabbit may have perfected the technique, but it was hardly the first.

no body is saying that anime didnt get its initial start without inspiration from western animation

Remember, I copy and pasted my last post from another message board where someone made the comment that he doesn't see how Western animation influenced anime.

do you know what that style of story telling and animation was inspired by? anime.

Oh please. Excellent storytelling isn't a concept created in anime. It's been around since the beginning of creativity and literature itself. You give anime FAR too much credit. And the animation style? How were either of these cartoons artistically influenced by anime? Batman's artistic style is a direct influence of film noir, and Bruce Timm's own drawing technique. As for Gargoyles, in an old interview with Greg Weiss, the show's creator, the inteviewer asked him if he ever considered doing Gargoyles in an anime style. Weiss replied, "What, you want all the characters to have huge eyes?" I think that speaks for itself.

recently Disney did an animated movie called Atlantis, and im not saying it ripped off Nadia...no...they were both based on 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea so the comparisons are natural but the style of direction and characters that they used for the movie was something a kin to anime styled direction.

I'll give you that one. And if you ever decide to use the Kimba/Lion King comparison, I'd give you that one as well. Although the Lion King is infinately better than Kimba.

 

[I.R Joey]

I don't know why you can say that anime degrades women. There are plenty of example of strong female charecters in anime. Let me think.

Kaorou from Ruroni Kenshin, sure she has a very girlish side but she can kick but when she needs to.

Megumi also from that show, she's personally one of my fav charecters and she doesn't fall into the trap that alot of Disney Heroines do, with the "Need to have a prince to be happy."

Ritsko Ikagi of Eva: Brilliant go, get em kind of girl I think.

The Knight Sabers from BGC: Again who needs guys.

Relena Peacecraft : Who I'd argue was perhaps the most powerful person in the GundamW show/OVA.

I'm sure people could find more. Also you should note that poles show the percentage of female Anime fans who watch action shows like said GundamW, Ruroni Kenshin, Trigun, and a few others is higher than that of most american action cartoons, and I think many American comics.

 

[Mr. Obsession]

Re: Re: I'll just copy this from the OTHER anime/cartoon debate I was in.

Mostly good stuff, but there are a few things I'd like to point out.

Originally posted by Zero Angel
not always true. computer effects in animation had already been toyed with in anime before things like Pixar existed. Masamune Shirow has been using digitatl technology as his paint brush now for about 10 years. Pixar released Toy Story when?

Technically digital painting and full CGI animation are two different things. The Japanese may have been toying around with digital coloring techniques, but western animators were playing with 3D CGI a bit earlier.

4) i hate to contradict here but when was the first animated show put on american tv? i mean actual running show...not shorts. it better have been before Tetsuro Atom.

I could be wrong, but wasn't that The Flintstones? I believe it's the first animated show where each episode took up 30 minutes (well, 20-odd after you take out the commercials). Astro Boy, IIRC is a little older, but it and The Flintstones are both about the same age and there defiantly wasn't the infrastructure at the time for them to air both countries around the same time.

look at shows like Gargoyles and Batman. yes they are mature themed shows that have a style much more high grade then what you would ussually see. do you know what that style of story telling and animation was inspired by? anime.

Actually both shows fall more under serial style of story telling, with heavy noirish elements. That and a lot of the Batman episodes are adaptations of stories from the comics, in many cases older ones.

But good writing is really more of a universal thing and shouldn't be pinned down like this because it really can't. I've seen some incredible shows that were written by Japanese writers and I've seen some crappy US ones, and vice versa.

 

[Jack]

The first made for TV cartoon was probably Crusader Rabbit, in 1949. It used a serial-type format, like "Ruff and Reddy" and "Rocky and Bullwinkle" with each episode being roughly five minutes long. Jay Ward worked on it, I believe.

It was extremely low budget, moreso than any Hanna-Barbera cartoons. It was very successful, and was even revived in the late 50s.

So, while it wasn't the first 30 minute long TV cartoon, it was the first TV cartoon.

As for digital ink and paint, I think Hanna-Barbera started experimenting with it in the early-mid 80s. I'm pretty sure some of the later Jetsons episodes were done with it. I've never really sought much information about it.


Jack

 

[zimbach]

Re: Re: Re: I'll just copy this from the OTHER anime/cartoon debate I was in.

Originally posted by Zero Angel
4) i hate to contradict here but when was the first animated show put on american tv? i mean actual running show...not shorts. it better have been before Tetsuro Atom.

The first made for (USA) TV animated series was Crusader Rabbit.

In 1948, Jay Ward (of Rocky and Bullwinkle fame) teamed with animator Alex Anderson and sold NBC-TV a series of cartoons featuring Crusader, a crusading rabbit, and Ragland T. Tiger, his sidekick. ref: TOON Tracker

Spoiler

Rags the Tiger was often drawn in the backgrounds of the Sylvester and Tweety Mysteries.

 

[Jack]

Re: Re: Re: Re: I'll just copy this from the OTHER anime/cartoon debate I was in.

Originally posted by zimbach

Spoiler

Rags the Tiger was often drawn in the backgrounds of the Sylvester and Tweety Mysteries.

I thought that was supposed to be Cool Cat.

 

[zimbach]

Upon further review

Originally posted by Jack

I thought that was supposed to be Cool Cat.

You're right, that's not Rags. My bad.

 

[Lachesis]

Originally posted by Eidan
Haven't seen GTO, have seen Excel Saga. What was so humorous about it?

It was a parody of all things anime and several things not. The Puchus. Random Nabeshin (a Lupin clone) appearances. A heroine so pale and delicate she faints constantly and coughs her way through the opening number. Menchi barking out the ending theme (with translation!). Bowling.

I'll recommend Boogiepop Phantom to you if you liked Lain. Straight horror and quite complex. I'm not too fond of Soul Taker myself, but the my point was there are anime out there that don't follow the norms you pointed out. If we're talking about good writing, that's a whole other ball of wax. Gasaraki and Crest of the Stars spring to mind. Dare I ask if you've seen NGE or Utena?

Yes. I thought the OAV was a lot better than the series. The series was filled with stupid moments where the dramatic tension was broken by some idiotic face (usually made by Kenshin), and Kaoru's constant screaming at him. I'm there are a lot of self-proclaimed otakus who thought this was hilarious. I myself was laughing.

Hmm. Try the Kyoto Arc. Nobody's laughing during that one.

Please. Sure in Slayers the female characters kick quite a bit of ass, but at the same time they are treated like sexual objects. How much clevage can be seen in your average Slayers episode? How much fan service is delivered? It seems as though even if women are protrayed as strong, the Japanese find a way to objectify them. Pitiful if you ask me.

Cleavage? You've been watching the OAVs, then. Honestly, I found the fanservice level to be comparatively low as far as the show was concerned. And considering the fact that Gourry wound up in drag in the seventeenth episode of all three seasons, it was quite often fanservice for both genders.

Who said anything about Roger Rabbit?

I'd have mentioned Mary Poppins as the obvious one. Not to mention the early Disney "Alice" comedies that ran in the early 1920s before Mickey came along.

 

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

It is my experience that when someone makes up their mind about something, there usually isn't turning back. Everything is already flawed in some way, and flaws tend to magnify when the mind is already biased against it.

I suffer from this too concerning certain types of genre or media, so I am not criticizing anyone.

 

[Mackenzie Rainelle]

Originally posted by Eidan

Please. Sure in Slayers the female characters kick quite a bit of ass, but at the same time they are treated like sexual objects. How much clevage can be seen in your average Slayers episode? How much fan service is delivered? It seems as though even if women are protrayed as strong, the Japanese find a way to objectify them. Pitiful if you ask me.

Oh, God, PLEASE don't compare the OVAs to the actual series. Out of ALL of the Slayers animation, only two characters had costumes that were fanservice, and they typically got beat up regularly by Lina.
In the series, for females, you had:
Lina - Short-statured, short-tempered, violent, black-magic-using, tomboyish sorceress who almost CONSTANTLY wore pants and outfits that covered the full body.
Amelia - Spacey, hero-worshipping, justice-obsessed shamanist-magic-using princess. Other than the formal dress she wore in her royal role, she also mostly wore pants or long skirts.
Sylphiel - Spacey, sweet-natured, soft-spoken, white-magic-using shrinemaden. Wore the same outfit the entire time, which consisted of a mid-thigh length dress thing with a high collar, purple tights, boots, and a long cloak.
Martina - Here's the fanservice character in the actual series. Spiteful, guy-chasing, worships-a-demon-she-created-herself former princess (her kingdom got destroyed by Lina). VERY bad fashion sense, and to describe her outfit would take many hours I do not have.
Filia - Short-tempered, tea-drinking- mace-wielding (and I DON'T mean the stuff in the little spray bottle) dragon priestess. Wore the same long pink dress, white boots, white cloak, white headdress outfit for the entire series, with her long yellow tail (with a pink bow) popping out from under her skirt whenever she lost her temper.

Compare to the OVAs:
Naga - Bikini-wearing, money-obsessed, airheaded sorceress/former princess. Since you're the one who brough up the constant fanservice, you're obviously familiar with how little SHE wears.

 

[Zero Angel]

Maybe I need to clarify...

ok. maybe i didnt make it clear with what i had said initially. first of all...Tetsuro Atom was the first half hour continuously running animated show on tv...Flinstones may have been around the same time but for some reason i believe it was dated a couple years after Atom Boy.

Second...my folly on naming off the idea and use of animated characters in live action. i had forgotten Pete's Dragon and Mary Poppins. i am ashamed.

Third...what im talking about in story telling is not that anime is a superior way of telling stories but when it comes to animation it was the trendsetter in making animated stories that had the direction and story telling style of a lot of high quality shows. Gundam is a good war drama. Macross was a nice war drama with good soap opera elements...so on.

Fourth...my reference to GTO being similar to Boston Commons is more like the fact that it is a drama taking place in a highschool that shows more in common with prime time tv then it would on Sat. morning cartoons. this could be said about most prime time anime (ie. GTO, NGE, Cutey Honey, Patlabor...).

and lastly...my reference to anime artists using digital elements to help them in art. i wasnt refering to cgi work to create 3D models like shown in Pixars more recent work but using the versitality of digital coloring to assist in creating art.

just as a finisher on this post...im curious if there has ever been a western animated feature or short that has ever been considered art or a peice of art. i have one anime in my mind that has taken such a role and that is highly regarded as animes big bragging right on being considered art. Wings of Honneimise.

 

[zimbach]

Re: Maybe I need to clarify...

Originally posted by Zero Angel
ok. maybe i didnt make it clear with what i had said initially. first of all...Tetsuro Atom was the first half hour continuously running animated show on tv...Flinstones may have been around the same time but for some reason i believe it was dated a couple years after Atom Boy.

Fourth...my reference to GTO being similar to Boston Commons is more like the fact that it is a drama taking place in a highschool that shows more in common with prime time tv then it would on Sat. morning cartoons. this could be said about most prime time anime (ie. GTO, NGE, Cutey Honey, Patlabor...).

just as a finisher on this post...im curious if there has ever been a western animated feature or short that has ever been considered art or a peice of art. i have one anime in my mind that has taken such a role and that is highly regarded as animes big bragging right on being considered art. Wings of Honneimise.

1. Tetsuwan Atomu (Mighty Atom) premiered in Japan in 1958, and was aired on NBC in 1962, retitled "Astro Boy". This was well before The Flintstones, but 14 years after Crusader Rabbit.

4. You are obviously confusing the short-lived NBC college sitcom "Boston Common" with the high-school faculty drama "Boston Public" which just finished its second season on FOX.

fin. Disney's Fantasia was the first first American feature-length animated film intended strictly as an artistic expression.

I personally object to the term "Western" to identify a culture or geographical area. The accepted definition is arbitrary and has more to do with European identity than anything else. I definitely do not want American animation to be equated with the European forms. The differences are even more striking than the differences between Japanese and American styles.

 

[Xevo]

Western culture, in reference to America, is applicable because we're on the Western Hemisphere of Earth. Europe can be called Western as well since it comprises the Westernmost part of the Eastern Hemisphere. I don't see "Western culture" as applying to either exclusively, but it works in both situations since they logically can be considered Western.

 

[Zero Angel]

Re: Re: Maybe I need to clarify...

Originally posted by zimbach

4. You are obviously confusing the short-lived NBC college sitcom "Boston Common" with the high-school faculty drama "Boston Public" which just finished its second season on FOX.

yes i had the two confused in names but Boston Public was the show that i meant as a comparison point.

Originally posted by zimbach

fin. Disney's Fantasia was the first first American feature-length animated film intended strictly as an artistic expression.

well the statement i had made was "is there any Western animation (american in this case) that has garnered the title as art?". Fantasia may have been going for that but did it achieve such a ranking?

 

[Mackenzie Rainelle]

Hn...

Fantasia could indeed be considered art, I will concede that point. I just wish there had been more than two of them, considering it was supposed to be a constantly changing process. There's too big of a gap. And I would LOVE to see the next Fantasia movie feature something by Yoko Kanno or John Cage since they're beginning to delve into later composers.

 

[Greek_Honeybee]

I consider Samurai Jack to be very artistic in a stylized sense. Many critics and fans agree, so I know I'm not alone. Does that count?