"Marvel's Spider-Man: Far From Home" Pre-Release News & Discussion Thread Part 1 (Spoilers)

[Batboy84]

The main reason so many characters from the 60s and 70s were white guys is because they were created by white guys who had no real desire or ability to represent the experiences of any other characters.

Seems strange to stick to limit future media to the restrictions of 50+ years ago.

Nick Fury can’t be black because some white guys in the 60s created him to be white? That doesn’t make sense. These are fictional characters.


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All I'm saying is that a character's race, gender, or orientation should not be altered, period. What happened in our history was terrible, but that doesn't mean we should alter any of these characters just to fit some diversity quota to put it bluntly. It's lazy. I'm not saying there aren't exceptions, Batwoman was an obscure enough character that DC could make her a lesbian, but in Nick Fury's case, they first introduced him in the Ultimate line to resemble Samuel L. Jackson, and then later on incorporated him in the mainstream, and even then he was introduced as the son of the original Nick Fury, which actually fits with what I'm talking about. No character should be altered just so a comic book company can claim to be more diverse when in reality it's the cheapest kind of diversity: taking a character that already exists and change one detail about the character and boom! Diverse. There are always exceptions. But in general, it is not the right thing to do, in my opinion anyway. Also we're getting way off-topic. lol

 

[the greenman]

I tend to lean toward @Batboy 84. Honestly, would it be right to do the reverse? A character like T'Challa all of a sudden is a colonizer? What about Jimmy Woo, created to be Asian American in a positive way? Why on earth would one update that? Now getting into race-within race is deeper. Like Sulu played by a Korean "shrugging hands up".

 

[Yojimbo]

Eric Carroll talks about Remi Hii's character Brad.

Mysterio's role is compared to Mordo's role in the 1st Doctor Strange.

 

[Freddy]

I tend to lean toward @Batboy 84. Honestly, would it be right to do the reverse? A character like T'Challa all of a sudden is a colonizer? What about Jimmy Woo, created to be Asian American in a positive way? Why on earth would one update that? Now getting into race-within race is deeper. Like Sulu played by a Korean "shrugging hands up".

The difference is that for minority characters being a minority is usually big part of their character one way or another. Meanwhile, I don't think I have ever seen cis white male character who absolutely couldn't be anything else for their story to work.

 

[Batboy84]

The difference is that for minority characters being a minority is usually big part of their character one way or another. Meanwhile, I don't think I have ever seen cis white male character who absolutely couldn't be anything else for their story to work.

A well-written character, a timeless character, appeals to all people, not one small group, and it's very difficult to do that when the character focuses on their skin color, their gender, or who they like to sleep with all the time. All of which most people don't obsess over from what I see in day to day life.

 

[Freddy]

A well-written character, a timeless character, appeals to all people, not one small group, and it's very difficult to do that when the character focuses on their skin color, their gender, or who they like to sleep with all the time. All of which most people don't obsess over from what I see in day to day life.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer is a fan-favorite tv-show even today. The show would also lose ton of thematic weight that makes it so popular, if Buffy wasn't a girl.

Luke Cage was so popular that Netflix crashed when season 1 dropped. It's also a show about race relationships and Harlem's black culture, so it would be really awkward, if Luke was white.

Black Panther is currently the most popular solo superhero movie of all-time and a cultural icon. It's also a movie that wouldn't work with a white protagonist.

In comparison Batman, Spider-Man, Superman, James Bond, Indiana Jones etc are broad enough characters that their race doesn't matter and their current popularity wouldn't be affected at all, if it were changed.

Changing white male characters doesn't limit your options as a storyteller or even as investor who only cares about the bottom line. It does the complete opposite.

 

[reflection01]

Well said, Freddy. I can’t think of many characters whose whiteness is an essential part of their character. Maleness? Sure. Heterosexuality? Sure. But are we really worse off because Heimdall and Valkyrie weren’t white? No.

Would be we worse off it T’Challa was white? Definitely.




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[Batboy84]

Buffy the Vampire Slayer is a fan-favorite tv-show even today. The show would also lose ton of thematic weight that makes it so popular, if Buffy wasn't a girl.

Luke Cage was so popular that Netflix crashed when season 1 dropped. It's also a show about race relationships and Harlem's black culture, so it would be really awkward, if Luke was white.

Black Panther is currently the most popular solo superhero movie of all-time and a cultural icon. It's also a movie that wouldn't work with a white protagonist.

In comparison Batman, Spider-Man, Superman, James Bond, Indiana Jones etc are broad enough characters that their race doesn't matter and their current popularity wouldn't be affected at all, if it were changed.

Changing white male characters doesn't limit your options as a storyteller or even as investor who only cares about the bottom line. It does the complete opposite.

Well said, Freddy. I can’t think of many characters whose whiteness is an essential part of their character. Maleness? Sure. Heterosexuality? Sure. But are we really worse off because Heimdall and Valkyrie weren’t white? No.

Would be we worse off it T’Challa was white? Definitely.




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Full disclosure, I have not seen Buffy or Luke Cage. The former because I'm not a fan of magic, the latter because I don't have a Netflix subscription and I don't like TV-MA shows. So apologies in advance. Now then.

Most popular would be a bit of a stretch since it's a subjective term, so I'll just treat your statement as meaning highest grossing solo superhero movie of all time if that's cool. Now, what makes either of you think Black Panther would only work as a black character in the movie? The message was that if you see a wrong being done, you don't sit back and do nothing. You get up and do something. That's not exactly something that is exclusive to the black population. As for the conflict, simple. Just move Wakanda near South Africa and have the conflict be about the murder of white people in that country that's been going on since the 90s, and voila. I just came up with a concept for a white Black Panther that still works with the concept of the movie.

Ah, but I already know what you're typing. But you shouldn't change minority characters, you would say. Why? Because you said so? You're already open to changing white characters. Why shouldn't we be willing to change any character we want? As one of you have said,

These are fictional characters.

These characters don't matter in the long run, period. So either we're willing to change ALL of them, or we're willing to change NONE of them. There is no in between here.

Now as for Black Panther being the highest grossing movie of all time, I mean it was the last movie before Infinity War. I would think that had SOMETHING to do with it. (And it's a clever tactic on Marvel's end too. So clever I think they did it with Captain Marvel too by placing it right before Endgame.)

Also, changing the race of characters like Batman, Superman, Indiana Jones, and James Bond and it not having an impact on their popularity is very, VERY debatable. But that's neither here nor there.

Also, I am feeling a bit snarky if you couldn't already tell, so I apologize if it was too harsh. It's 5 AM where I live and I can't sleep. So... can we get back to talking about Far From Home? After you type your responses of course. Far be it from me to silence a debate.

Eric Carroll talks about Remi Hii's character Brad.

Mysterio's role is compared to Mordo's role in the 1st Doctor Strange.

According to that article, it sounds like Mysterio will feature in more than just Far From Home. Sounds like either Marvel is really optimistic about their chances of extending their deal with Sony, or the deal is already done and they have yet to announce it.

 

[Freddy]

So you made Black Panther "work" as a white character... by completely rewriting his story and turning him into a different character. T'Challa is the king of an isolated African country that has never been colonized. Pretty hard to buy that he would be anything else, but a black man.

In comparison, if Batman or James Bond (for example) were changed into minorities, you would have to change nothing. Their backstories still would make perfect sense and you would have to revamp very little, if not anything.

Changing minority characters white would be wrong for multiple reasons. They are usually minorities for actual story reasons and there's alreade severe lack of representation of non-white heroes.
Meanwhile, 99% white characters are white just because it's a norm and that's it.

When the oppression of minorities is gone and white isn't treated as the default skin color for characters, then you might have a point. But for now, it's not a black-and-white (pun not intended) matter of every fictional character being equal.

 

[Fone Bone]

So you made Black Panther "work" as a white character... by completely rewriting his story and turning him into a different character. T'Challa is the king of an isolated African country that has never been colonized. Pretty hard to buy that he would be anything else, but a black man.

In comparison, if Batman or James Bond (for example) were changed into minorities, you would have to change nothing. Their backstories still would make perfect sense and you would have to revamp very little, if not anything.

Changing minority characters white would be wrong for multiple reasons. They are usually minorities for actual story reasons and there's alreade severe lack of representation of non-white heroes.
Meanwhile, 99% white characters are white just because it's a norm and that's it.

When the oppression of minorities is gone and white isn't treated as the default skin color for characters, then you might have a point. But for now, it's not a black-and-white (pun not intended) matter of every fictional character being equal.

It's the true notion that not every fictional character is created equal simply based on their race and gender which is why black versions of white characters would work in most instances and wouldn't work for white versions of black characters. Most female and minority characters work in a great deal of empowerment for the groups they identify with. Most white male characters (with the possible exception of Jonah Hex) do not.

For the record, Jonah Hex sucks, is empowering to the wrong people, and is a pretty loathsome character. But a black Jonah Hex would never work just based on the backstory.

 

[Batboy84]

So you made Black Panther "work" as a white character... by completely rewriting his story and turning him into a different character. T'Challa is the king of an isolated African country that has never been colonized. Pretty hard to buy that he would be anything else, but a black man.

In comparison, if Batman or James Bond (for example) were changed into minorities, you would have to change nothing. Their backstories still would make perfect sense and you would have to revamp very little, if not anything.

Changing minority characters white would be wrong for multiple reasons. They are usually minorities for actual story reasons and there's alreade severe lack of representation of non-white heroes.
Meanwhile, 99% white characters are white just because it's a norm and that's it.

When the oppression of minorities is gone and white isn't treated as the default skin color for characters, then you might have a point. But for now, it's not a black-and-white (pun not intended) matter of every fictional character being equal.

That was kinda the point. By your own words, most minority characters would have their minority status featured prominently in the story. By that logic, changing someone like Batman and James Bond, they would automatically have to mention their minority status simply because the majority of everyone else does. You would be changing their history regardless. And by what logic exactly is it hard for you to buy that he can "only" be black? Why can't he be Asian? Or from the Middle East? Or South American? And on that note, who are you to judge when a group of people are no longer oppressed? Because from my memory, Barack Obama was president for 8 years. Let me guess. All the oppressors voted for him out of guilt. Twice. And what was the last straight, white, male character to be made anyway that didn't have to be white?

It's the true notion that not every fictional character is created equal simply based on their race and gender which is why black versions of white characters would work in most instances and wouldn't work for white versions of black characters. Most female and minority characters work in a great deal of empowerment for the groups they identify with. Most white male characters (with the possible exception of Jonah Hex) do not.

For the record, Jonah Hex sucks, is empowering to the wrong people, and is a pretty loathsome character. But a black Jonah Hex would never work just based on the backstory.

So let me wrap my head around what you're saying. You're saying that white characters aren't as sacred as black characters? Is that it? Please tell me that's not what you're saying.

Edit: I wanted to amend this to say that Fone and I continued and settled the debate via PM. If anyone else would like to do the same, feel free.

 

[RoyalRubble]

May 13th:
Can we please get back on the topic of Spider-Man: Far From Home?

Low-res stills from the Empire Magazine.

May 14th:
Another Empire Magazine cover.

New image from the movie and some comments from Holland. Possible Spoilers.

Recap of the articles from Empire Magazine. Again, Spoilers.

 

[Rick Jones]

I rewatched Endgame today and the new spoiler trailer played post credits. They played a little alert featuring Tom Holland right before the movie that said to stay tuned for after Endgame.

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[RoyalRubble]

Some new brief footage. Possible spoilers.

 

[Yojimbo]

Hmm. I always thought she figured it out during Homecoming cause of that weird obsession she had with Peter.

 

[the greenman]

Well, in this current climate of superhero films, they don't care about secret identities anymore. Which I feel needs to be addressed in terms of heroes endangering their friends and families in the future.

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[Batboy84]

Well, in this current climate of superhero films, they don't care about secret identities anymore. Which I feel needs to be addressed in terms of heroes endangering their friends and families in the future.

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It's not just the films sadly. At this point, the only reason Barry Allen would be able to keep his identity secret from people on The Flash is if someone glued his mask to his face.

 

[Yojimbo]

New posters released.

 

[Radiant97]

The character posters look much better than the main one.

Looks like a direct-to-video DVD cover.

 

[RoyalRubble]

May 24th:
International TV Spot with some new footage.

May 29th:
New still released.

The movie will be converted to the ScreenX 270-Degree Format.

May 31st:
Chinese trailer. The movie premieres on June 28th over there (a week before the US).