Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles "Secret Origins" Talkback (Spoilers)

[Duke]

Dude, the model sheets for Shredder revealed he was a Utrom before this episode aired, you'll have to accept it.

No we don't, we're rabid fans!

 

[Dr.Zar]

No we don't, we're rabid fans!

Tell me about it

MIRAGE fans are horrific to talk with when it comes to this...

 

[Ian]

Dude, the model sheets for Shredder revealed he was a Utrom before this episode aired, you'll have to accept it.

No, we don't. It seems to answer most of our questions, but the whole theory still has some holes left in it. Along with those questions The Shredder 656 asked, there's some other stuff it leaves unanswered.

1) If he's an Utrom, and knows how to use technology (as shown by the ship's sabotage) much more advanced than human tech, why rely on Baxter Stockman for his tech needs?

1a) On a related note, how could he manage to mantain a first generation exoskeleton (a prototype, even) in excellent conditions throught the centuries? He may have the skill (which is doubtful, given point 1), but he didn't have the means till centuries later.

1b) Since Saki has not been shown as technosavvy, how could he develop Utrom grade artificial skin, without the means to do so?

2) Like someone mentioned on another site, why would the Guardians think The Shredder dead when Leo decapitated him? Do the Oots know that Saki and the Utrom are apparently the same person?

3) OK, the Utroms are fanatically clean, requiring "decontamination" after the barest human contact. Yet the Shredder shows no such skittishness. Sure, the Utroms could be paranoid, but I don't think so.

4) How would Saki partake in public human abilities, like dinners and such (a must for any successful businessman) without raising suspicion? Think of a man in a very traditional Japan, refusing to eat, or partake in their customs. He'd lose any chance at legitimacy. Also, we've seen him drink, right?

5) Shredder clones. Nuff said.

Given these points, I don't think we can write off Saki as an Utrom just yet, as it raises more questions than it answers. It may all be an elaborate red herring, and I have a feeling that it is. The obvious answer seems too easy somehow, and the pieces don't fit. Sure, the holes could be bad writing, but with the general quality of the series, I very much doubt it.

 

[Wounded_Dragon]

No, we don't. It seems to answer most of our questions, but the whole theory still has some holes left in it. Along with those questions The Shredder 656 asked, there's some other stuff it leaves unanswered.

1) If he's an Utrom, and knows how to use technology (as shown by the ship's sabotage) much more advanced than human tech, why rely on Baxter Stockman for his tech needs?

1a) On a related note, how could he manage to mantain a first generation exoskeleton (a prototype, even) in excellent conditions throught the centuries? He may have the skill (which is doubtful, given point 1), but he didn't have the means till centuries later.

1b) Since Saki has not been shown as technosavvy, how could he develop Utrom grade artificial skin, without the means to do so?

2) Like someone mentioned on another site, why would the Guardians think The Shredder dead when Leo decapitated him? Do the Oots know that Saki and the Utrom are apparently the same person?

3) OK, the Utroms are fanatically clean, requiring "decontamination" after the barest human contact. Yet the Shredder shows no such skittishness. Sure, the Utroms could be paranoid, but I don't think so.

4) How would Saki partake in public human abilities, like dinners and such (a must for any successful businessman) without raising suspicion? Think of a man in a very traditional Japan, refusing to eat, or partake in their customs. He'd lose any chance at legitimacy. Also, we've seen him drink, right?

5) Shredder clones. Nuff said.

Given these points, I don't think we can write off Saki as an Utrom just yet, as it raises more questions than it answers. It may all be an elaborate red herring, and I have a feeling that it is. The obvious answer seems too easy somehow, and the pieces don't fit. Sure, the holes could be bad writing, but with the general quality of the series, I very much doubt it.

1. While he may be proficient with Utrom technology, that does NOT mean he's proficient with human technology. Indeed, snobbery may have kept him from learning human tech early on when he could've mastered the basics.

1a. The technology is just that good..

1b. There's a reason his suit is full body. No one can see what's underneath. He may have employed body doubles for his dealings with humans. All this as a stopgap measure until he did develop the skin. Or had someone else develop it. Who says Baxter Stockman is the only human scientist he's taken in.

2. Perhaps losing the head destroys the older suits? Or they may thought this Shredder was human. We won't know until we know how their first Shredder confrontation ends. The Utroms seemed to think he was human

3. Old prejudices die hard? They seem to be a long lived race. If they are, old prejudices would be reinforced by them sticking together. Saki, living out amongst the humans, would have no reinforcement of his prejudices.

4. Sips and itty bitty bites. We have no idea how sophisticated his suit is.

5. It's assumed they are Shredder clones. No one who would know better actually said they were clones.

 

[Ian]

1. While he may be proficient with Utrom technology, that does NOT mean he's proficient with human technology. Indeed, snobbery may have kept him from learning human tech early on when he could've mastered the basics.

Except that he's not a snob. He's actually embraced human culture, and it wouldn't make sense for an up and coming businessman not to adapt to new technologies. Besides, him giving Stockman part of the East River exoskeleton for study implies that he does NOT understand Utrom technology.

1a. The technology is just that good.

Actually, from what we've seen, Utrom technology and materials aren't that much better or more durable than human products. I mean, we've seen the Sword of Tengu (made out of utrom metals) destroyed by a small explosion, an Utrom spaceship looking like any other ship would look like after a crash landing, and the ripped in half East River Exoskeleton. I don't think it's above gradual wear and tear.

1b. There's a reason his suit is full body. No one can see what's underneath. He may have employed body doubles for his dealings with humans. All this as a stopgap measure until he did develop the skin. Or had someone else develop it. Who says Baxter Stockman is the only human scientist he's taken in.

Actually, considering we don't know how the renegade Utrom first interacted with humans, we can't answer this either way.

3. Old prejudices die hard? They seem to be a long lived race. If they are, old prejudices would be reinforced by them sticking together. Saki, living out amongst the humans, would have no reinforcement of his prejudices.

Except that the Utroms dislike having to decontaminate. It seems to be not so much a custom as much as something necessary.

4. Sips and itty bitty bites. We have no idea how sophisticated his suit is.

Sure we do. It's controlled manually (as opposed to something like Honeycutt's mentawave helmet), has an independent power source, and is meant only for camouflage. The later models give them mobility akin to that of an average human, and above average strengh. Also, they have no mouths (logical, since there's no reason to have one), so they cannot eat. Add this to the facts I stated previously about the durability of their materials, and we know quite a bit. Also, I wasn't talking just about food. I was talking about stuff like public baths, and marriage and sex (stuff he can't avoid in feudal japan and still be a ruler/respected warlord.

5. It's assumed they are Shredder clones. No one who would know better actually said they were clones.

True. We'll have to wait and see, as we'll have to do with all the other questions, and to confirm whethever Saki's an Utrom or not.

 

[Anarky]

we're being led to think that the evil utrom and the shredder are the same.
however, there's still two parts left and lots more utrom history to learn. there could still be more sharp turns in the road that takes the shredders roots down another path.

still, it'd explain why he was able to pick up his dome after Leo seperated it from his body.

 

[AdamYJ]

I'm sorry, but the show has officially jumped the shark with the revelation that Shredder is Krang (whatever the evil Utrom's name was).

Don't give up on this show or this season just yet. I checked out the episode guide on Mirage's website and there seems like there's some good stuff coming up. They'll be revisiting some of the stuff from last season and we're going to get introduced to Shredder's right hand woman Kairi, Leatherhead and, surprisingly, Usagi Yojimbo in the coming weeks (I just hope they remembered to ask Stan Sakai's permission before using Usagi, it's easy to forget that he wasn't a TMNT character to begin with).

If he is a Utrom though, I saw this type of thing coming at the end of last season. When his head was lopped off, I was like: "He's dead. Wow. I'm going to miss him." Then when he picked up his head and carried it away, I distinctly remember thinking: "Aw crap. They're going to do something weird, aren't they?".

 

[Behonkiss]

Usagi Yojimbo?

Didn't see that coming.

 

[Sharklady]

> I just hope they remembered to ask Stan Sakai's permission before using Usagi... <

I'm certain they did- their legal depatment would insist.

And it's improbable Peter Laird would want to cut the bunny's creator out of the deal in any case; rumor has it that they get along pretty well. Sakai in particular has reason to want to continue the association. If it weren't for the TMNT, how much market would there ever have been for Usagi Yojimbo action figures?

 

[Jundaunted]

Don't give up on this show or this season just yet. I checked out the episode guide on Mirage's website and there seems like there's some good stuff coming up. They'll be revisiting some of the stuff from last season and we're going to get introduced to Shredder's right hand woman Kairi, Leatherhead and, surprisingly, Usagi Yojimbo in the coming weeks (I just hope they remembered to ask Stan Sakai's permission before using Usagi, it's easy to forget that he wasn't a TMNT character to begin with).

I know that, it's just that, the thought of Shredder being an Utrom is so annoying, it will probably distract me from anything else that's on the show. I'm curious to know though, how they're gonna explain Karai's relationship with Shredder now that he's an alien (they were siblings in the original comics).

And just for the record, they did asked for Stan Sakai's permission to get Usagi in the new show.

 

[SirLemming]

I know that, it's just that, the thought of Shredder being an Utrom is so annoying, it will probably distract me from anything else that's on the show.

I just have to ask... ...why?

I don't know, I just don't see why this is such a big problem to everyone. It's a heck of a lot more interesting than the old Shredder.

 

[Duke]

I just have to ask... ...why?

I don't know, I just don't see why this is such a big problem to everyone. It's a heck of a lot more interesting than the old Shredder.

I think people were expecting Shredder to be an immortal or something, not a red brain in an exo-suit.

 

[AdamYJ]

I don't know, I just don't see why this is such a big problem to everyone. It's a heck of a lot more interesting than the old Shredder.

The idea of an unstoppable ninja crimelord, who just happens to be merely human, isn't interesting!? You are disinterested in some of the coolest things.

 

[Simpler Simon]

The idea of an unstoppable ninja crimelord, who just happens to be merely human, isn't interesting!? You are disinterested in some of the coolest things.

I think he meant the Shredder from the original cartoon, not the Shredder from the original comics.

Considering that there are still two more chapters in the "Secret Origins" arc, I'm sure the creative team still has some surprises up their sleeve. One possibility that dawned on me was that this Shredder is indeed some kind of warrior from feudal japan, who had a family. The rogue Utrom, after stealing the exosuit, comes upon Shredder's family and kills them. Shredder vows revenge, kills the Utrom, and uses the metal from the exosuit to create his armour and the sword of tengu. Through some secret arts that he discovers later, he becomes immortal, and hunts the Utroms through the centuries.

 

[wrenchien]

I know that, it's just that, the thought of Shredder being an Utrom is so annoying, it will probably distract me from anything else that's on the show. I'm curious to know though, how they're gonna explain Karai's relationship with Shredder now that he's an alien (they were siblings in the original comics).

And just for the record, they did asked for Stan Sakai's permission to get Usagi in the new show.

usagi, huh? hey, bring back irma. even if she gets her simple but cute garmentry totally realigned for the 00's, she was pretty funny. and could be funny again

leatherhead would be there, huh? he's that alligator dude from tmnt's original animated series, i assume?

all that remains is the frogs to appear next year, rocksteady and bebop to show their heads, and we're in. and i, for one, am glad there is no 'fifth turtle' in this series. it.. just throws the mythos off a lot to do that.

 

[Duke]

all that remains is the frogs to appear next year, rocksteady and bebop to show their heads, and we're in. and i, for one, am glad there is no 'fifth turtle' in this series. it.. just throws the mythos off a lot to do that.

I doubt the frogs, Rocksteady, or Bebop will appear in these new series.

And Irma kinda made a cameo in "Lone Raph & Cub."

 

[Toon Capone]

Some thoughts on the episode

Baxter now just being a head using robotic legs to move around reminds me of Mr. Freeze.

Am I the only one that thinks Michaelangelo is annoying in this series?

As for Shredder and the evil Utrom being one in same I guess they wanted to combine the mythos of Krang and Shredder into one. I'm glad a Krang like character is the series I just don't think Shredder should be it.

I loved Krang in the old series and if Peter Laid was going to use him or a character similar to him they should have made him seperate from Shredder or made them allies like in the old cartoon.

But who knows I just have to wait into the next two episodes.

 

[Sketch]

He's not Krang and he's not suppose to be.

I was hesitant to accept the idea of Saki being a rogue Utrom but now it seems to work pretty well.

As for eating and drinking... He probably has a way to consume food or at least filter it through the exoskeleton so that he doesn't give anyone a cause for alarm. He seemed to enjoy the tea well enough in the first episode so whose to say the Utrom doesn't just like Japanese foods?

Its just another way to potray the Shredder. Nothing more and nothing less.

 

[Ian]

I just have to ask... ...why?

I don't know, I just don't see why this is such a big problem to everyone. It's a heck of a lot more interesting than the old Shredder.

1) It ruins most of the coolness of the final act of "Return to New York, pt. 3", reducing it to a robot's beheading (something that we've seen lots of times and has no "oomph" behind it).

2) The Shredder, as it stands now, is little more than Krang on steroids. And it's hard to take little talking brains seriously.

3) The concept of an immortal man who's also unkillable (which isn't redundant, since inmortal creatures can still be killed) is one little used, especially in american cartoons. It made the Shredder Special. Meanwhile, an evil Utrom has been done before (Krang).

4) An immortal Oroku Saki adds an element of poignancy to the Turtles/Utroms battle against The Shredder, since they'd be fighting a battle they can't ever win. With an Utrom Shredder, all you need is a sniper, some good armor piercing rounds (not even that, if he's not in his armor), and it's good-bye, Shredder.

5) If the questions asked about "Shredder as an Utrom" aren't answered satisfactorily, we end up with a half-assed concept.

 

[Sketch]

You forget, he's a master at the martial arts and he wouldn't be so easily defeated. He'd guard his um... "innards" very well.

Shredder never was a main player in the comics and they had to find a way for him to "die" and then comeback for the cartoon without anything that wouldn't be acceptable for childrens television.

I think we can trust Laird to make this worth watching still. If anyone knows how the turtles stories should be retold... its him.