What was the point when Kids WB went downhill?

[Stumpos]

I am intrigued at know when you all think Kids WB began going downhill? I've seen many pointing out when Fox Kids (the rival to Kids WB) went downhill which was generally seen as around 1997-ish when Margaret Loesch left, the Fox Family channel launching a year later which proved to be unsuccessful and helped sink Fox Kids, and the infighting with Saban and Fox. But not much on when Kids WB went downhill.

With that said, when do you all think Kids WB went downhill? And what factors caused said decline?

 

[J'onn J'onzz]

Depends on what your preferences are.

Some feel it went downhill when they got Pokemon, because it began airing a lot at the expense of the WB comedies. The older cartoons and the new Spielberg ones were phased out over the late 90s and early 2000s in favor of Pokemon, and then Cardcaptors and Yugioh.

On the other hand, Pokemon was extremely popular. Saying it killed Kids WB is like saying Naruto killed Toonami. Yes, it drowned the life out of other shows, but it also generated the best ratings on the block for years. Kids wb was king of Saturday mornings for a long time because of Pokemon.

I would say losing Pokemon and Yugioh, while moving to the CW, was the beginning of the end for Kids WB. Most of the new shows on the CW failed. There was also much poorer brand cooperation with CN, with few shows from the CW era making it to CN, other than Johnny Test and Tom and Jerry Tales.

 

[Goldstar!]

For me, it was when the network began to favor action cartoons over comedies. Don't get me wrong. I liked Superman: TAS, The New Batman Adventures (although I liked Batman: TAS more), and Static Shock, but after Men In Black: The Series, Looney Tunes and the Silver Age WB cartoons began gradually disappearing from Kids' WB's lineup to the point where Detention and Generation O were the only comedy cartoons left on the schedule that weren't anime. It was weird watching a Kids' WB lineup with no Looney Tunes or LT adjacent shows on it. When the network crammed them all into a single program (the infamous Big Cartoonie Show), I knew this marked the end of an era. Yeah, What's New Scooby Doo? came a little later, but by that time, Kids' WB had become nearly all action.

 

[Mejo]

I think that one day basically started the beginning of the end of the block itself as a whole quality wise: September 17, 2005. That was the day that Coconut Fred’s Fruit Salad Island, Loonatics Unleashed and Johnny Test premiered, three shows that would live in infamy for years to come (the only one of those shows that I find even remotely watchable is the one with the whip crack sound effect).

 

[Silverstar]

I'm going to straddle the fence here and say I agree with both @Goldstar! and @Mejo. Kids' WB started to lose me when the Looney Tunes shows (Bugs & Daffy, Merrie Melodies) and the Spielberg shows (Animaniacs, Freakazoid!) started disappearing in favor of action toons (Batman Beyond, Static Shock, X-Men: Evolution) and anime (Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh!, Cardcaptors). That's not meant to throw shade at those shows; anime and action proved to be big ratings grabbers for KWB, so naturally they were going to order more of them, but the few comedies that remained at that time (Generation O!, Detention), were, quite frankly, kind of lame.

When the block stooped to the likes of Loonatics Unleashed and Coconut Fred, those were the stakes that got driven into the heart of KWB and killed it. I'll sprinkle this with a slight Unpopular Opinion: Johnny Test in its' initial season wasn't too bad, or at least wasn't as bad as it would later become. It was very derivative and silly, but the animation and stories weren't all that terrible. It was when WB dropped out and the show went to full Flash that it truly mutated into the repetitive whip crack horror show that went on to haunt Cartoon Network for years to come.

 

[wonderfly]

I know when I tuned out: December 2001, when the final episode of "Batman Beyond" aired. As I had gotten cable by that point, I "jumped ship" and moved most of my cartoon viewing over to Cartoon Network after that.

I think the point where it "went downhill" was the premiere of "Loonatics Unleashed", "Johnny Test" and "Coconut Fred" in September 2005. I have the commercials from that morning on my Youtube Channel:




That's when it went downhill. I think it officially "died" when Kids WB lost the rights to Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh in September 2006. Or it died arguably when "Xiaolin Showdown" (the last "good" Kids WB original) aired it's final episode in May 2006. I know, I know: it was still "Kids WB" until May of 2008, but it was in name only.

 

[PF9]

When Pokemon left. That's all I have to say.

 

[aegisrawks]

When the Weekday Block died. Seriously, I cant blame anything else, hate that Coconut guy all you want, it was the first Final Fantasy 7 reference on mainstream Network Television, before Final Fantasy became vomitive and awful.

 

[Ace]

I think Kids WB kind of got screwed over because of problems related to the network that owns them. Johnny Test was enough of a success Cartoon Network brought it and treated it like one of their own. (4-5 million viewers when it aired on the WB/CW which is nothing to scoff at) and I heard Coconut Fred's ratings really werent bad. It just got swept up in the financial mess that happened with the WB at the time.

The problem seems more that they didn't have money to produce things on their own anymore and that mess with the merger into the CW. They probably could have kept going on for a few more years before linear TV's eventual decline.

 

[aegisrawks]

I think its nothing Kids WB did and more the fact commercial laws that made 4 million kids way less appealing to advertisers than 4 million adults...even if The WB/The CW never reached that big after 2005.

 

[wiley207]

For me, it was when the network began to favor action cartoons over comedies. Don't get me wrong. I liked Superman: TAS, The New Batman Adventures (although I liked Batman: TAS more), and Static Shock, but after Men In Black: The Series, Looney Tunes and the Silver Age WB cartoons began gradually disappearing from Kids' WB's lineup to the point where Detention and Generation O were the only comedy cartoons left on the schedule that weren't anime. It was weird watching a Kids' WB lineup with no Looney Tunes or LT adjacent shows on it. When the network crammed them all into a single program (the infamous Big Cartoonie Show), I knew this marked the end of an era. Yeah, What's New Scooby Doo? came a little later, but by that time, Kids' WB had become nearly all action.

Even "What's New, Scooby-Doo?" was mostly an action cartoon, largely focusing on Fred, Daphne and Velma in a series that felt similar to the DC Comics shows of the time, or an Adelaide Productions series, in terms of artwork and animation, music and realistic sound effects. Shaggy and Scooby-Doo were largely pushed into the background for occasional comic relief moments, and any attempts at such comedic traits (like the Hanna-Barbera "running on the spot" bit) would look kind of awkward, as if one tried it in real life. (Warner Bros. Animation seemed to emulate it better during the Seven Arts era.) The sole exception was that weird "Camp Comeoniwannascareya" episode near the end of the show's run where only Shaggy and Scooby were there; I guess by that time Warner Bros. were testing to see if Scooby and Shaggy could carry a series on their own, which is what happened the following year with "Shaggy and Scooby-Doo Get a Clue" (which was also an action cartoon, but more of an action-comedy along the lines of "Teen Titans" and "Kim Possible" and "Inspector Gadget").
Didn't help that when Sander Schwartz moved from Adelaide Productions to become executive producer at Warner Bros. Animation, the beloved Termite Terrace was mostly retooled to produce action cartoons, both for Kids' WB and for Cartoon Network. The only good comedic cartoon they made during that era was "Duck Dodgers"; any other attempts usually fell flat (like the Larry Doyle "Looney Tunes" shorts and "Coconut Fred's Fruit Salad island").

 

[Mejo]

Didn't help that when Sander Schwartz moved from Adelaide Productions to become executive producer at Warner Bros. Animation, the beloved Termite Terrace was mostly retooled to produce action cartoons, both for Kids' WB and for Cartoon Network. The only good comedic cartoon they made during that era was "Duck Dodgers"; any other attempts usually fell flat (like the Larry Doyle "Looney Tunes" shorts and "Coconut Fred's Fruit Salad island").

I wonder how much blame should really be put on Sander Schwartz for the increase in the amount of action cartoons at WB animation. As Goldstar said, the increase of action cartoons there was already occurring before Schwartz became executive producer so regardless of whether he became executive producer or not, the amount of those cartoons produced during 2001 - 2007 probably wouldn’t have changed much. Really, I feel most of the blame should fall onto the executives at Warner Bros for coming up with those ideas alongside Schwartz for falling through with those ideas (I feel like Schwartz main flaw as an executive producer was that he was too much of a yes-man to the WB executives, I’ve even heard some people compare him to Jamie Keller because of that).

 

[wiley207]

I wonder how much blame should really be put on Sander Schwartz for the increase in the amount of action cartoons at WB animation. As Goldstar said, the increase of action cartoons there was already occurring before Schwartz became executive producer so regardless of whether he became executive producer or not, the amount of those cartoons produced during 2001 - 2007 probably wouldn’t have changed much. Really, I feel most of the blame should fall onto the executives at Warner Bros for coming up with those ideas alongside Schwartz for falling through with those ideas (I feel like Schwartz main flaw as an executive producer was that he was too much of a yes-man to the WB executives, I’ve even heard some people compare him to Jamie Keller because of that).

Well, it's only partly due to Sander Schwartz retooling the studio, as like I said, their output was being made for both Kids' WB and Cartoon Network at the time, along with their direct-to-video movies and the aborted theatrical shorts. Another reason was due to the success of the newer "Superman" and "Batman" shows of the late 1990s, "Men in Black: the Animated Series", and of course "Pokémon". (Though again, up until after the Johto era, "Pokémon" was more of an action-comedy, until around the Hoenn era when most of the comedic stuff was reserved for the Team Rocket trio.)

 

[Spideyzilla]

I know when I tuned out: December 2001, when the final episode of "Batman Beyond" aired. As I had gotten cable by that point, I "jumped ship" and moved most of my cartoon viewing over to Cartoon Network after that.

I think the point where it "went downhill" was the premiere of "Loonatics Unleashed", "Johnny Test" and "Coconut Fred" in September 2005. I have the commercials from that morning on my Youtube Channel:




That's when it went downhill. I think it officially "died" when Kids WB lost the rights to Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh in September 2006. Or it died arguably when "Xiaolin Showdown" (the last "good" Kids WB original) aired it's final episode in May 2006. I know, I know: it was still "Kids WB" until May of 2008, but it was in name only.

This is why the topic is interesting, Kids WB’s longevity meant that it had different eras. For me, Kids WB was in its prime in 2003. I was obsessed with Yu-Gi-Oh!, but stuck around for stuff like What’s New Scooby Doo. I don’t exactly remember when I stopped watching, but I like the idea that the loss of the weekly block was the beginning of the end.

Yeah… the end of Kids WB was depressing. I jumped back in back in 2008, I had just gotten back into comics and wanted to watch Spectacular Spider-Man, and couldn’t believe how much of a shell it was of itself. I tried watching the block more once I learned it was ending, but I couldn’t do it. The last morning was rough. I tried to watch it all for old time’s sake and couldn’t make it past 8:30. Granted I was older and had outgrown a lot of the content, but it was bad. I was very sad to see it go, but it was for the best in hindsight. At least 4Kids tried to revitalize it from what I remember, even if it didn’t work.

 

[JMTV]

Well, I think it's a death of thousands cuts. Corporate restructuring, management changes, cable TV on the rise, Cartoon Network became a lot more popular, Pokémon and Yu-Gi-Oh leaving, too much competition, etc etc. There are whole bunch of different reasons as to why Kids WB went downhill.

 

[aegisrawks]

Well, I think it's a death of thousands cuts. Corporate restructuring, management changes, cable TV on the rise, Cartoon Network became a lot more popular, Pokémon and Yu-Gi-Oh leaving, too much competition, etc etc. There are whole bunch of different reasons as to why Kids WB went downhill.

Dont forget the Ad Laws making it increasingly harder to profit from Broadcast Kids TV Block.

 

[JMTV]

Dont forget the Ad Laws making it increasingly harder to profit from Broadcast Kids TV Block.

Yeah, that too.

 

[wonderfly]

This is why the topic is interesting, Kids WB’s longevity meant that it had different eras. For me, Kids WB was in its prime in 2003. I was obsessed with Yu-Gi-Oh!, but stuck around for stuff like What’s New Scooby Doo. I don’t exactly remember when I stopped watching, but I like the idea that the loss of the weekly block was the beginning of the end.

Yeah… the end of Kids WB was depressing. I jumped back in back in 2008, I had just gotten back into comics and wanted to watch Spectacular Spider-Man, and couldn’t believe how much of a shell it was of itself. I tried watching the block more once I learned it was ending, but I couldn’t do it. The last morning was rough. I tried to watch it all for old time’s sake and couldn’t make it past 8:30. Granted I was older and had outgrown a lot of the content, but it was bad. I was very sad to see it go, but it was for the best in hindsight. At least 4Kids tried to revitalize it from what I remember, even if it didn’t work.

The weekday afternoon Kids WB block ended in December 2005. It was in January 2006 when the WB network announced it was merging with UPN (to become The CW). And that set up Kids WB losing the rights to Pokemon and Yu-gi-oh later on that year (in September 2006).

Re: different eras.

I've tried to divide Kids WB up into 3 or 4 eras. The first era (the "comedy focused" era) ended with the final episode of "Animaniacs/Pinky and the Brain" in November 1998.

The 2nd era is the "Action cartoons" era, and I'm a bit undecided as to when that ended. You have several different options:

1. the last episode of "Batman Beyond" in December, 2001
2. the final episode of "X-Men Evolution" in October 2003
3. the final episode of "Static Shock" in May 2004
4. the final episode of "Jackie Chan Adventures" in July 2005
5. the final episode of "Xioalin Showdown" in May 2006

I know where I personally tuned out (after December 2001) but that's just me. The more I think about it, I'm going to go with the end of "X-Men Evolution" as the end of this era. "Xiaolin Showdown" premiered in November 2003, right after X-Men Evolution ended, and I kinda consider that the start of the decline (though I respect "Xiaolin Showdown", it wasn't really my type of show).

Here are some X-Men Evolution commercial breaks from October 2003, from my Youtube channel:



So from November 2003 to September 2006 (when Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh went away), that might be the 3rd era, the "slow decline" years.

And from September 2006 to May 2008, Kids WB was just an undead husk.

 

[J'onn J'onzz]

The weekday afternoon Kids WB block ended in December 2005. It was in January 2006 when the WB network announced it was merging with UPN (to become The CW). And that set up Kids WB losing the rights to Pokemon and Yu-gi-oh later on that year (in September 2006).

Re: different eras.

I've tried to divide Kids WB up into 3 or 4 eras. The first era (the "comedy focused" era) ended with the final episode of "Animaniacs/Pinky and the Brain" in November 1998.

The 2nd era is the "Action cartoons" era, and I'm a bit undecided as to when that ended. You have several different options:

1. the last episode of "Batman Beyond" in December, 2001
2. the final episode of "X-Men Evolution" in October 2003
3. the final episode of "Static Shock" in May 2004
4. the final episode of "Jackie Chan Adventures" in July 2005
5. the final episode of "Xioalin Showdown" in May 2006

I know where I personally tuned out (after December 2001) but that's just me. The more I think about it, I'm going to go with the end of "X-Men Evolution" as the end of this era. "Xiaolin Showdown" premiered in November 2003, right after X-Men Evolution ended, and I kinda consider that the start of the decline (though I respect "Xiaolin Showdown", it wasn't really my type of show).

Here are some X-Men Evolution commercial breaks from October 2003, from my Youtube channel:



So from November 2003 to September 2006 (when Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh went away), that might be the 3rd era, the "slow decline" years.

And from September 2006 to May 2008, Kids WB was just an undead husk.

Some more reasons to regard November 2003 as the start of the decline:
X-Men Evolution is replaced by Teen Titans reruns from CN, indicating WB is now prioritizing CN over Kids WB for new superhero cartoons. If Ben 10 had been on Kids WB instead of CN, it might have prolonged the block.
Pokemon entered into the controversial Advanced era. Misty was written out of the show. While May has more to do than Misty, she was overbearing and annoying at first. She had two rivals, and Ash had none. Many traditional Pokemon fans fell out of watching the show.
Yu-Gi-Oh went into the Noah saga. This was a filler arc that suddenly interrupted the Battle City arc. From here on, Yu-Gi-Oh starts to lose momentum with many future filler arcs, and canon material being stretched out.
Xiaolin Showdown is okay for what it is, but it doesn’t hold up as well as X-Men Evolution for me. The characters are ultimately stereotypes, even if they do receive some development over time.

 

[Stumpos]

Some more reasons to regard November 2003 as the start of the decline:
X-Men Evolution is replaced by Teen Titans reruns from CN, indicating WB is now prioritizing CN over Kids WB for new superhero cartoons. If Ben 10 had been on Kids WB instead of CN, it might have prolonged the block.
Pokemon entered into the controversial Advanced era. Misty was written out of the show. While May has more to do than Misty, she was overbearing and annoying at first. She had two rivals, and Ash had none. Many traditional Pokemon fans fell out of watching the show.
Yu-Gi-Oh went into the Noah saga. This was a filler arc that suddenly interrupted the Battle City arc. From here on, Yu-Gi-Oh starts to lose momentum with many future filler arcs, and canon material being stretched out.
Xiaolin Showdown is okay for what it is, but it doesn’t hold up as well as X-Men Evolution for me. The characters are ultimately stereotypes, even if they do receive some development over time.

Adding on is how around 2003 is when WB Animation began to split the shows between Kids WB and CN rather than premiering them on Kids WB first (before 2003, the only post-1992 WB Animation show not made for Kids WB was Justice League ) such as Duck Dodgers, Teen Titans, Justice League Unlimited, Krypto the Superdog, Baby Looney Tunes, and Firehouse Tales. And the only Kids WB originals aired post-2003 to ever rerun on Cartoon Network were Johnny Test (where it was overplayed to the point where they even commissioned three new seasons) and Tom & Jerry Tales.