Why Did Almost Every Battle Shonen on Cartoon Network Toonami Fail Except DBZ and Naruto?

[Space Cadet]

Kids' TV's total abandonment of battle shonen is pretty interesting. Nicktoons practically turned into the Dragonball Z Kai channel in the early 2010s but once they finished a rerun of GT, they dropped the franchise quickly. Dragonball Super was created specifically to appease Western kids' channels by taking out almost all the blood that ironically made it a hit with the kids. Despite the franchise being inexorably linked with Cartoon Network in the 00s, Cartoon Network noped on Super. Dragonball Daima is probably getting on Adult Swim despite looking kiddier than Super. Don't know why Cartoon Network and Nicktoons turned on the Dragonball franchise.

I would say the main advantage of Kai is the fact that most of the filler was taken out, which makes it easier to get into the show compared to the original version. The Saiyan Saga going from 35 episodes to 18 is huge for example.

As for the blood, part of that is because Kai and Super aired in the mornings, where content is much stricter in Japan compared to prime time, which is where the original DBZ aired. Another example of this is Code Geass where the first season aired late night and the second season aired early afternoon.

Rurouni Kenshin is very much a historical Japan setting, which, again, may have been confusing or off-putting to a lot of American viewers, however good the characters or action may have been.

I feel like in Kenshin's case, going from weekday Toonami to Saturday nights hurt it. Generally, feudal Japan does pretty well with American audiences as we can see with the recent Shogun remake being a critical and commercial success.

 

[J'onn J'onzz]

Something that hasn’t come up much here is Miguzi. This block was not focused on anime. The only ones that really did well on it were Yugioh GX and Pokemon. Their initial lineup had zero anime despite anime being the bulk of Toonami’s weekday lineup. For their first schedule change, they tried airing Transformers Energon, but they only aired it for two weeks. They tried giving a few Toonami shows like One Piece and Zatch Bell weekday runs on there, but they only lasted a month or two as well. Shows like Bobobo and Duel Masters which were the sort of kid friendly action comedies Miguzi wanted never ended up airing there at all.

Rave Master seemed to be designed to get a Miguzi run, with a goofy 2000s dub (remember the ska intro and the rave a long karaoke ending?) but the only Miguzi airings it got were at 6:30 pm on Saturday immediately before Duel Masters came on Toonami. It never got a weekday run, outside of an undesirable 10:30 pm slot in 2005.

That pre AS slot was also the only time GT was given a full weekday run. Even when Toonami was on weekdays, GT aired only on Fridays. I think GT would’ve been far more successful if it had been able to roll out five new episodes a week like DB and DBZ did. Still, even at one a week at 10 pm on Toonami Saturdays, Akins said in the August 2004 interview that it was their top performer. Why they had their top performer airing when most of the kids CN was targeting were asleep is beyond me though…

Despite being supposedly an action block, Miguzi ends up airing random comedy cartoons like KND and Mucha Lucha. Eventually they lose a half hour, and start airing Naruto at 5:30 pm, but with ambiguous branding. Toonami’s logo was on the bumpers, but no TOM narration. Miguzi seemed to want to be more family friendly than Toonami, and never aired any of the TV-PG shows from Toonami.

 

[Conttactt]

Aside from Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh!, there aren't a lot of toyetic anime series out there these days in general. Go Rush hasn't been dubbed yet, but I believe that Konami Cross Media is working on it. Sevens is still airing reruns on Disney XD. It's still so weird that they haven't released Rush cards after dubbing Sevens and releasing a Sevens Switch game.

The Go Rush dub has to be right around the corner cause Go Rush will be added to Duel Links in September. So they gotta get the cast set for at least the core group of characters.

Maybe it was an exaggeration to say the Rush Yugioh anime are hated by most Yugioh fans. It’s hard to know if it is a vocal minority or actual majority. But there was a lot of backlash to the changes to the card game format, the new art style, shorter arcs, the focus on juvenile humor, etc. Many people who play the card game may not even know Sevens exists, or has a dub

Rush has not been going over well in Duel Links. But it’s hard to say if it’s because people dislike Rush, or they just can’t afford to play it. In a very foolish decision, Konami made regular and Rush cards use the same currency. So most players are forced to focus on the standard game.

I’d say fanbase reaction is more indifference. The Yugioh anime had some serious dips in quality in Arc V and Vrains, but people stuck with it because it was Yugioh. Rush is an unfamiliar game so people just don’t bother with it. I do agree, the younger cast doesn’t help it. Zexal had the youngest protagonist at age 13, but pretty early in the series they move away from the school and it’s hard to tell Yuma is that young.

 

[J'onn J'onzz]

The big question for Go Rush is whether they can get Disney XD to air it. Otherwise they will have to settle for releasing it online only, like they did for VRAINS. Disney are deprioritizing their cable channels, so they may pass on new kids anime like Beyblade X and Go Rush.

I did find some ratings for Sevens and Beyblade (around 75,000) but they are from a month before the Spectrum carriage dispute reduced the Disney XD audience.

x.com

x.com

 

[Light Lucario]

The Go Rush dub has to be right around the corner cause Go Rush will be added to Duel Links in September. So they gotta get the cast set for at least the core group of characters.

They confirmed that a Go Rush dub was in the works awhile ago and since the Sevens dub technically finished releasing episodes last December, they should probably have at least the first Go Rush season ready to go by now. At this rate, I'd be surprised if they get the dub released before September, so Duel Links could possibly be the first time we hear the dub voice cast for at least the first batch of characters.

Rush has not been going over well in Duel Links. But it’s hard to say if it’s because people dislike Rush, or they just can’t afford to play it. In a very foolish decision, Konami made regular and Rush cards use the same currency. So most players are forced to focus on the standard game.

I have heard a bit of backlash towards that decision. Given how frequently Konami releases new packs and decks, I can't blame people for being upset about it. Rush Duels, going by Duel Links, does feel like a simplified version of the regular game while also feeling like a different game at the same time. I like the concept behind Rush Duels since Yu-Gi-Oh! has had an issue with attracting new fans and bringing in older fans back into the OCG for a long time. I don't know how well it is executed or if it would be appealing for the Duel Links player base.

I’d say fanbase reaction is more indifference. The Yugioh anime had some serious dips in quality in Arc V and Vrains, but people stuck with it because it was Yugioh. Rush is an unfamiliar game so people just don’t bother with it. I do agree, the younger cast doesn’t help it. Zexal had the youngest protagonist at age 13, but pretty early in the series they move away from the school and it’s hard to tell Yuma is that young.

Indifference would be a bit more fitting than hatred. Sevens and Go Rush just don't have much promotion and the cards not being accessible outside of Japan doesn't help matters either. Even out of the school, you could still tell that Yuma was pretty young just by his design, but I do remember quite a bit of backlash towards Zexal for initially having such a young cast too.

The big question for Go Rush is whether they can get Disney XD to air it. Otherwise they will have to settle for releasing it online only, like they did for VRAINS. Disney are deprioritizing their cable channels, so they may pass on new kids anime like Beyblade X and Go Rush.

I did find some ratings for Sevens and Beyblade (around 75,000) but they are from a month before the Spectrum carriage dispute reduced the Disney XD audience.

x.com

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I wouldn't be surprised if it does have to be a Hulu exclusive series. Disney XD is really the only channel that would be willing to air toyetic anime series nowadays. If they aren't willing to air Go Rush, then KCM wouldn't have any other choice than to put it on some streaming service instead. They seem really set on TV deals, which isn't nothing, but it isn't worth delaying their dubs for months or years like they've been doing since Vrains.

 

[Conttactt]

I have heard a bit of backlash towards that decision. Given how frequently Konami releases new packs and decks, I can't blame people for being upset about it. Rush Duels, going by Duel Links, does feel like a simplified version of the regular game while also feeling like a different game at the same time. I like the concept behind Rush Duels since Yu-Gi-Oh! has had an issue with attracting new fans and bringing in older fans back into the OCG for a long time. I don't know how well it is executed or if it would be appealing for the Duel Links player base.

At announcement, there was more positive hype for Rush being added, but that was primarily because people expected a separate currency. There was also some excitement because at first, it seemed like Rush character months would also have a speed character, as the first month after release had Mimi unlocked at the start of the month, then Ghost Gal at the end. This did not stick, so there is some frustration among the players when a Rush character is added as it slows the other series worlds down by a full month.

Unfortunately it was not implemented in a good way and it will probably affect Rush getting a physical release in the west.

The big question for Go Rush is whether they can get Disney XD to air it. Otherwise they will have to settle for releasing it online only, like they did for VRAINS. Disney are deprioritizing their cable channels, so they may pass on new kids anime like Beyblade X and Go Rush.

I did find some ratings for Sevens and Beyblade (around 75,000) but they are from a month before the Spectrum carriage dispute reduced the Disney XD audience.

x.com

x.com

If Disney XD doesn’t want to air it, I wonder if Konami would even bother pushing it elsewhere. I mean, what’s the point? It’s a toy commercial that doesn’t have its toys. I wouldn’t put it past them that the only reason it’s being dubbed is for Duel Links sake.

 

[Light Lucario]

At announcement, there was more positive hype for Rush being added, but that was primarily because people expected a separate currency. There was also some excitement because at first, it seemed like Rush character months would also have a speed character, as the first month after release had Mimi unlocked at the start of the month, then Ghost Gal at the end. This did not stick, so there is some frustration among the players when a Rush character is added as it slows the other series worlds down by a full month.

Unfortunately it was not implemented in a good way and it will probably affect Rush getting a physical release in the west.

I can understand that frustration of slowing down releases of Speed Duel characters too, although I wouldn't be too surprised if that was done by design. They still have characters they can add, but their options will become more limited and I don't know what they'll do after they add Go Rush World this year.

 

[Rynnec]

And I personally think that the last season of Rurouni Kenshin just wasn't a priority, it's famously derided for a reason. Would have been nice if Trust & Betrayal could have had some kind of airing, though.

Trust & Betrayal should've been a lock for an Adult Swim premiere, especially since I recall RK doing better with the AS demo than CN's. I know AS didn't play ball with ADV much, and the dub for the Kenshin OVA's are...less than stellar, but you'd think it would've been a high priority for them regardless.
Don't know why Cartoon Network and Nicktoons turned on the Dragonball franchise.

Don't know why Cartoon Network and Nicktoons turned on the Dragonball franchise.

Kids networks just don't want to pay too much money to air shows they don't own wholesale anymore, it seems.

 

[J'onn J'onzz]

Yu-Gi-Oh! GO RUSH!! - WorldScreenings

worldscreenings.com

There is recently news that Go Rush will be 151 episodes, via this website about the dub. They plan to dub the entire thing even if it is released abroad first. Remember that Arc V came out in Canada and Australia before America. I don’t know if those countries still air Sevens, but they did air VRAINS when America never did. They will probably end up getting some international TV showings even if America doesn’t bite.

 

[PicardMan]

It is also interesting to note Kekkaishi as a potential Toonami what if and if it and Moribito would have been as reviled if they aired on Cartoon Network Toonami instead. The Cartoon Network audience didn't really get into most of the tamer shows either. I know that ASA airing Kekkaishi over Soul Eater has often been seen as the equivalent of drafting Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan, but there have been theories other than Kim Manning being clueless about anime to explain it. Some say it was because Adult Swim was broke, but it's not like Hulu was the richest kingdom in the land, yet they afforded it when streaming was in its very early stages. Theory two is that Funimation wanted it exclusively on their cable channel that nobody got, but FMA Brotherhood didn't have that restriction. No proof for either of those theories. It will probably forever be a mystery.

 

[J'onn J'onzz]

Moribito has a strange and disastrous history. There was a plan to make it a multimedia franchise aimed at children, but that flamed out. Scholastic licensed the books but only released the first two of thirteen. I have read the show was picked up by Jennifer Davidson. Her original plan was for the show to air on Toonami, which she initially planned to return to four hours after the block had been cut back to two hours to make room for Goosebumps in October 2007 for Halloween. There were countless complications with this plan. First, she suddenly fell ill and died. Then CN decided to axe her plans to allow Toonami to return to four hours. Within a year, the block was dead. They did not really start airing any other new anime in that last year, other than Blue Dragon. That seemed like a good enough idea, since it was a Toriyama series. But it was too little too late.

Then the licensing company Geneon which was responsible for the dub of Moribito went out of business after dubbing only ten episodes, as the anime bubble burst. Later on AS was able to get the rest of the episodes eventually dubbed once Media Blasters rescued the license, but the first year of the show on AS was just the first ten episodes airing repeatedly. They mainly aired at 5:30 am, because the show bombed horribly at 1:30 and got dumped to dawn after three episodes. When it first aired, I didn’t even make it through those three episodes. I think I only watched the first one and didn’t see the rest until later. The show was very slow and talky. Anyone who hasn’t heard the rumors about the history with Toonami would just assume it was another dry Kim Manning pick.

Biggest Bombs for AS Anime

Well... some anime did worse than others. In retrospect Paranoia Agent at least seemed to have some kind of following so maybe it shouldn't be on a list of bombs on AS and maybe it should. I suppose that's a matter of opinion but it is a good show or at least a very intriguing one.You got a good...

animesuperhero.com

 

[PicardMan]

They did not really start airing any other new anime in that last year, other than Blue Dragon. That seemed like a good enough idea, since it was a Toriyama series. But it was too little too late.

Moribito at least has the complete series on DVD for about $20, which is something that can't be said about the Cartoon Network era flops that never got complete DVD releases. If I remember correctly about Blue Dragon, it also got the Zatch Bell treatment of being shunted to Jetstream. It was nowhere near as edgy as DBZ and I remember a fart joke. 17 year old me didn't find the show that appealing, except the sexy pirate lady. It is streaming sub only, so at that Cartoon Network era flop didn't become complete lost media (only the dub did). Kekkaishi is still on streaming, unlike the Cartoon Network Toonami flops. It probably would have been Cartoon Network Toonami bound if the block still existed. Maybe it's for the best it didn't air on Cartoon Network Toonami as dubs of flops that aired on Cartoon Network Toonami tend to become lost media.

 

[J'onn J'onzz]

Moribito at least has the complete series on DVD for about $20, which is something that can't be said about the Cartoon Network era flops that never got complete DVD releases. If I remember correctly about Blue Dragon, it also got the Zatch Bell treatment of being shunted to Jetstream. It was nowhere near as edgy as DBZ and I remember a fart joke. 17 year old me didn't find the show that appealing, except the sexy pirate lady. It is streaming sub only, so at that Cartoon Network era flop didn't become complete lost media (only the dub did). Kekkaishi is still on streaming, unlike the Cartoon Network Toonami flops. It probably would have been Cartoon Network Toonami bound if the block still existed. Maybe it's for the best it didn't air on Cartoon Network Toonami as dubs of flops that aired on Cartoon Network Toonami tend to become lost media.

Moribito would’ve never finished airing if it went to Toonami. Somehow being on AS got it the privilege of being re-licensed by Media Blasters after Geneon went under. Then Viz and Sentai both eventually licensed it and put out their own releases. It does seem to have a cult fanbase, because of the beautiful production IG animation I assume. It just isn’t a good fit for US TV due to the lack of action.

I remember someone on 4Kids Flashback talked about what they did after they moved on from 4Kids. They ended up doing censorship on ShoPro and Viz shows like Blue Dragon. They had to do a lot of 4Kids style censorship on the Bouquet character due to the fanservice nature of many of her scenes. There is also an infamous edit where they replace panties with a flag in episode 4. Even on the few DVDs they were censored, but I think there was an uncut dub on Hulu. Nowadays Viz dubs are well regarded, but at the time some of their dubs were sometimes nearly as butchered as 4Kids shows. Look up what they did to Megaman NT Warrior for Kids WB. Lots of episodes aired out of order, straight up skipped, or censored.

 

[Conttactt]

I can understand that frustration of slowing down releases of Speed Duel characters too, although I wouldn't be too surprised if that was done by design. They still have characters they can add, but their options will become more limited and I don't know what they'll do after they add Go Rush World this year.

A major factor for the frustration is that certain characters people want, become increasingly irrelevant in the meta the more time that passes. For example, there is huge demand for Atticus in GX world. However, 2 separate Joey releases have funneled most Red Eyes support to him, on top of Red Eyes not being able to compete at all in the current meta. So when we do get him, it’s too late for people to enjoy using him. Some fan demands such as Misty Tredwell have modern day card support that will help them compete, but only a handful of characters are that lucky. And then there are just some baffling omissions, such as Vetrix being skipped in Zexal world despite being the main antagonist for the first 50 episodes or so.

As far as future content goes, DM world is pretty well exhausted. GX has been neglected, hasn’t had an event in nearly 2 years. 5ds just finished its main story path, so it can go back to some of the fan requests. Zexal is on track to wrap up soon. Two more Barian unlocks then Don Thousand. Arc V still has a lot to go, and also a lot of potential backlog since Arc V had so many unique characters, then Vrains world is struggling with how many major characters had zero of their cards printed in the TCG. So as far as monthly events go, they are solid for at least another 2-3 years. Where they find themselves in a pickle is next September. There has been the long standing rumor of a world for DM filler characters, but looping back to my original point, many of them have long since missed their chance to be relevant.

 

[PicardMan]

Nowadays Viz dubs are well regarded, but at the time some of their dubs were sometimes nearly as butchered as 4Kids shows. Look up what they did to Megaman NT Warrior for Kids WB. Lots of episodes aired out of order, straight up skipped, or censored.

Viz seems to have gotten rid of the "Vizkids" branding they had in the 00s. The toyetic kid shows like Pokémon are the rare titles that don't get uncut or subbed releases nowadays and Viz's old practice of releasing edited only DVDs of titles like Blue Dragon, Zatch Bell, and MAR obviously wouldn't fly today and hurt these shows very badly in the past. Viz also has a history of dropping licenses and yeeting them into the sun if they aren't profitable. I guess it would take a Discotech miracle to see Zatch Bell, MAR, and the Blue Dragon dub become legally viewable again. Hulu has the uncut sub of Blue Dragon, but not the uncut dub.

 

[Bluebaron]

I wish toonami aired saint Seiya...

 

[J'onn J'onzz]

Viz seems to have gotten rid of the "Vizkids" branding they had in the 00s. The toyetic kid shows like Pokémon are the rare titles that don't get uncut or subbed releases nowadays and Viz's old practice of releasing edited only DVDs of titles like Blue Dragon, Zatch Bell, and MAR obviously wouldn't fly today and hurt these shows very badly in the past. Viz also has a history of dropping licenses and yeeting them into the sun if they aren't profitable. I guess it would take a Discotech miracle to see Zatch Bell, MAR, and the Blue Dragon dub become legally viewable again. Hulu has the uncut sub of Blue Dragon, but not the uncut dub.

There was a lawsuit involving Zatch Bell which caused them to never even finish the manga releasing in America. Not sure if that played a role in the anime ending early too, but it had already flamed out when they put the last dub season on Jetstream only.

Prince of Tennis was also a dropped Viz dub on Jetstream. I believe it did finally get a full redub by another company. It was a weird choice for Toonami to begin with, as sports anime are pretty unheard of in America. They aired a few episodes in a random order on TV, then had to advertise that they were starting over from episode one and airing all episodes. It didn’t last long into the TOM4 era.

The biggest sports manga in America was probably Eyeshield 21. A lot of people liked it because of the art and popularity of football in America. The anime had a bizarre and failed Jetstream release where Viz combined a bunch of episodes into 5 episodes, and the NFL was even involved. These episodes never made it to TV, which is just as well. Going by the abridged mess that was the TV airing of Mega Man Star Force, they probably would have butchered it even further getting it to air.

 

[PicardMan]

These vintage Anime News Network reviews of Cartoon Network's Saturday era shows (and notorious ASA flops Kekkaishi and Moribito:

Rave Master DVD 2

Perhaps the Japanese version of Rave Master is a fairly decent anime series. But with these dub-only, kiddie-fied DVDs, most of the English-speaking world may never know.

www.animenewsnetwork.com

Blue Dragon Dub.DVD 3

Shu has his showdown with General Logi in what is definitely the series' best volume to date. Adults will still want to give the series wide berth, however.

www.animenewsnetwork.com

Zatch Bell DVD 1

This show is so mind-numbingly over-the-top, so enthusiastically bizarre, that it's difficult to not get sucked into its strange little world.

www.animenewsnetwork.com

Kekkaishi DVD Set 2

Although many of the antics in this second quarter are the standard shonen coming-of-age fare and comedy relief, important new characters are introduced and the overall plot takes substantial steps forward.

www.animenewsnetwork.com

Moribito DVDs 5-6 and 7-8

Piecing together the mystery behind the Nyunga Ro Im forces opposing groups to work together to protect Chagum and stave off a devastating drought as this superb fantasy series concludes. A visual and storytelling masterpiece, it stands as one of the decade's highlight series.

www.animenewsnetwork.com

Not too surprised that Blue Dragon and Rave Master were panned then just as they've fallen into obscurity now, although the question is how much of it was the show's fault and how much of it was due to Viz and Tokyopop's hackdubs. Zatch Bell got a pretty decent review compared to the rest. Kekkaishi got a generically average score, and Moribito was highly acclaimed. Okay, professional anime critics at the time tended to favor slow drama-based anime that Kim Manning was obsessed with. General audiences' general preference for ASA's more standard shonen series like Bleach make it obvious that they don't share this preference.

 

[aegisrawks]

As much of a rap One Piece had in the 00s, it did have a rabid and obsessed fanbase and it avoided the fate of becoming lost media like Zatch Bell, Rave Master, MAR and all those other shows that are no longer legally available in the US. It probably helped that the uncut version was actually edgy. I think Rave Master, Zatch Bell, etc. had very little blood even in their uncut form. That is one notable difference between the 90s shonen that aired on Toonami in the 00s (Yu Yu Hakusho, Rurouni Kenshin, DBZ) and the 00s shonen like the aformentioned shows that became lost media. 00s shonen might have been tamer than 90s shonen in an attempt to make them easier to export to American kids, but it seems like that was a miscalculation. Whether it was kids, teens, or adults, the edgy titles like Yu Yu Hakusho and Rurouni Kenshin had the rabid cult fanbase while the tamer titles have now faded into obscurity. Shonen had a huge comeback in the 2010s when it got edgier again (with the exception of Toriko. Fairy Tail was pretty edgy in terms of fanservice despite being tame in terms of violence). I think 00s shonen being so tame was what led to the slump.

Have you actually seen Gash Bell, I picked a random episode, ok not really random some episode I really liked back then, but that show is FULL OF BLOOD. And not just blood, but naked bodies, a song about fondling breasts, and uncut punches to the face male to female. And its not like the girl is a badass and can take it, its Brago punching poor Sherry in the middle of a mental breakdown.

And I am not actually saying the show was better for it. I loved Zatch Bell, and it REALLY is better off edited like it was. The Japanese version's excesses really work against it.

Paravision loved airing Zatch Bell but stopped once Paraguayan kids figured out the dub would never be finished, it stopped at 52 in Latin American spanish.

 

[J'onn J'onzz]

Why are even older english dubs censored? Rave Master episode 1 and 2 as example

So I recently watched Rave Master dubbed, and knew something was up. They used expressions that were far too bizarre like anger management and broccoli ice cream. I watched the sub for episode 1 and 2 to compare the differences. Here are the changes I noticed Episode 1 - dub cuts a scene...

myanimelist.net

Zatch Bell

Zatch Bell is a Japanese anime that was produced by Toei Animation and broadcast from April 6, 2003 to March 26, 2006. Viz Media censored the show for international market due to wanting it to be more family friendly. Episode 1 The scene that shows a close up on Gash Bell's penis was cut. The...

censorship.fandom.com

I found some censorship lists for Zatch Bell and Rave Master. Seems like standard censorship for the mid 2000s. Removing all references to death, recoloring guns, cutting out a lot of the crude and sexual jokes from the Japanese version.

The most infamous edit from Zatch is “Hey Hey Let’s Dance All Day” which was edited from a song called Chichi Wo Moge about grabbing breasts…