"Gargoyles: Bad Guys" #1 - 6 Mini-Series Talkback (Spoilers)

[James Harvey]

The latest Gargoyles comic series it here!

GARGOYLES: BAD GUYS #1



Words: Greg Weisman
Art: Karine Charlebois

Story: Bad Guys: Time to fight fire with fire Five of the toughest villains in the Gargoyles Universe: Hunter – member of a Scottish family of gargoyle-slayers; Dingo – Australian mercenary and charter member of the deadly Pack; Matrix – a nanotech hive-mind artificial intelligence that came very close to destroying the Earth; Yama – a Japanese gargoyle who betrayed his own clan, and Fang – the mutate who would be king. Take this quintet of felons and force them to work on the side of the angels. It may be hard to believe, but these Bad Guys are the best hope we've got!

Comments?

Related Discussion:
-The World's Finest Gargoyles Special Subsite
-Gargoyles General Discussion Thread (Spoilers)
-Gargoyles: Season Two, Volume Two DVD Talkback (Spoilers)
-Gargoyles: Season Two, Volume One DVD Talkback (Spoilers)
-Gargoyles: The Complete First Season DVD Talkback (Spoilers)
-Gargoyles #1-11 Classic Series Talkback (Spoilers)
-Gargoyles #1-12 "Clan Building" Talkback (Spoilers)
-Gargoyles: Bad Guys #1-6 Mini-Series Talkback (Spoilers)

 

[Spider-Man]

This is a really good start to the comic! It's definitely setting up what could be a fun story. I mean this is basically the Suicide Squad but in the Gargoyles universe right? That's cool!

 

[GregX]

*** Big Bad Spoilers ***

Picked up "Gargoyles: Bad Guys" #1 today. The first issue was a lot of fun. Has a definite 'First Act' feel to it, which is fine, that's what it is.

There are two stories going on here, one about how the team is formed, and another which takes place two months later. The latter seems to obviously be the story from the "Bad Guys" leica reel, which is cool. I look forward to finding out, after all these years, what their mission there is.

But, let's talk about the real meat of the story. We open in Sydney, Australia where we meet, ::snickers:: The Tazmanian Tiger. A one-shot villain, if I ever saw one. If he were a Spider-Man villain, he'd be in the Legion of Losers. Which is fine, not every villain can be, or should be, Xanatos, Demona or Thailog. Knowing Greg, he'll probably use this guy again eventually down the road, however, he'll need a major upgrade to be at all credible. Bit of an anecdote, when I first saw this guy, I laughed so hard, I think the other patrons as the sushi place thought I was having a seizure.

Dingo and Matrix show up and do their thing. Australia's premere superhero. Loved, respected. I liked the brief Superman homage. Also, nice creepy forboding about how Matrix inserts itself into Dingo's spine. Looking forward to seeing where that's going.

Enter Hunter, probably my favorite character in the book. For those not in the know, she's a mysterious, badass chick with a gun and a cool mask. I look forward to seeing things from her perspective soon. Right now, we're seeing things from Dingo's point of view, and he obviously does not like her... yet. But, given the solicitation for #3, I think we'll be getting that.

What did surprise me is that it was Matrix, and not Dingo who accepted Hunter's offer. Matrix wasn't even really under threat, and I have my doubts that it was on Hunter's recruitment list.

Now, they're heading to Tokyo to hunt a Tengu. I can't wait to read it.

Art wise, this looked good. I think the book works well in black and white? Would I prefer color? Yeah, who wouldn't. But I don't care. The inking and toning looks good. I'll admit, I'd love to see some of those newer characters in color, but it's fine.

The cover. I'm still not quite sold. It looks good, and the Wanted posters as covers idea is fun, but, and especially for a first issue, I think something a little more dynamic and eye-catching would have been better. A group shot of the team. Or, perhaps, another of the characters. Hunter, maybe Dingo. Matrix doesn't really have a design that jumps out at you.

Still, a very fun book and I look forward to seeing where this goes. The "Gargoyles" Universe is expanding, and it's much bigger and richer than just Goliath and his clan in Manhattan. I want to see more, much more.

*** Big Bad Spoilers ***

 

[Ian]

So. Of all of the Gargoyles spin-off concepts, Bad Guys has always been my second favorite. It's Gargoyles meets the Suicide Squad: there's no way that can't be awesome.

Or so I thought.

Random thoughts:

· From the solicitations and this issue, it seems that the mini-series will largely focus on how the team is formed, with the final issue (or else the first few pages of each issue) focusing on their first (second?) official mission, as seen during this issues’ opening pages. It’s not the approach I’d use or liked to see used—not only do we already know that their recruitment drive is successful, why should we care at this point how the team got together if we don’t care about the team at all?

· The feeling I get from this comic book—and Gargoyles itself, to a lesser extent—is that Greg finalized the scripts back in ’96 and hasn’t done any revisions since. The designs, and the dialogue, in particular, feels dated for some reason—like something out of an old X-Men book.

· Three pages in, and Weisman is already trying to sell us Dingo/Robyn as a couple. It doesn’t work, at all, not only because it’s the first time we’ve seen both characters together, but because we have to be told by Fang that they’re attracted to each other, instead of the attraction being there for the reader to deduce. It makes me think that the only reason Fox and Xanatos work so well as a couple is because Weisman didn’t plan it.

· Thus far, Robyn is a cipher, Dingo is Dingo, so Matrix steals the show almost by default. While the boom box thing during the opening scene is a bit too cute, he’s interesting in his literalness and single-mindedness.

• The art is good. While I’d prefer to have Charlebois drawing the regular book and this book drawn by Gargoyles #4's Nir Paniri, it all looks fine.

 

[Antiyonder]

It was certainly worth waiting for. It shows that the other characters can carry a series without Goliath and Company. My favorite moments include:

- Fang's "sensitivity" towards Dingo and Robyn's "spat" (who said he isn't observant).
- Dingo and Matrix's fight with Tasmanian Tiger. Reads a bit like an old super hero comic, and in a good way. Even though I started collecting in the late 90s, I tend to prefer the older comics with some exceptions.
- Dingo's reaction to learning of Matrix's insertion.
- What's the worst that can happen indeed.
As with Gargoyles #5, Karine did topnotch work on the art.

The feeling I get from this comic book—and Gargoyles itself, to a lesser extent—is that Greg finalized the scripts back in ’96 and hasn’t done any revisions since. The designs, and the dialogue, in particular, feels dated for some reason—like something out of an old X-Men book.

The story is alternating between 1996-1997. Besides, if Tale Spin could be entertaining despite being set in the 30's, no reason Gargoyles or any spinoff can't be done in the late 90s.

 

[GregX]

So. Of all of the Gargoyles spin-off concepts, Bad Guys has always been my second favorite. It's Gargoyles meets the Suicide Squad: there's no way that can't be awesome.

Just so everyone knows, DC Comics did not do it first. "Dirty Dozen", which was Greg's inspiration did it first. Suicide Squad and Bad Guys both were inspired by "Dirty Dozen".

Greg always cites "Dirty Dozen" as his source, I have never once seen him cite "Suicide Squad".

 

[Antiyonder]

As for lack of revision, I'm guessing he felt the story elements as natural now as they were then. But then we still have #2-5 to see if anything changed since he planned it.

Just so everyone knows, DC Comics did not do it first. "Dirty Dozen", which was Greg's inspiration did it first. Suicide Squad and Bad Guys both were inspired by "Dirty Dozen".

Greg always cites "Dirty Dozen" as his source, I have never once seen him cite "Suicide Squad".

Makes me wish I asked about that in the comment room. I did acknowledge awareness that The Dirty Dozen was the source, but asked him if The SS did provide any partial inspiration.

 

[GregX]

So, I picked up #2 of "Bad Guys" today. I enjoyed it more than the first issue. Now we finally seem to be getting somewhere and the team has more or less coalesced. Well, still one more, but we're getting there.

Most of the issue takes place in Tokyo, where we open with Yama reflecting on his banishment from the clan. He can only return when his honor has been regained, and he himself is his own judge. A very harsh and unforgiving judge. This universe has never had a lack of characters full of self loathing. Nice to finally see Sora get some characterization after, what, twelve years now?

Loved the action sequence where Hunter and Dingo take down Yama. Hunter is quite the wily one, isn't she? I'm really enjoying her character. Yama and Dingo making fun of her accent was also quite amusing. But more than that, she threatens his clan if Yama does not join, and being the samurai that he is feels that his lost honor cannot be regained under coercion. Damn, this must suck for him.

Must not forget Vinnie's cameo. I hope he doesn't get mugged. Poor guy, doesn't speak the language.

I did enjoy Dingo's reaction to being told they're heading to New York. He's still a wanted, escaped felon there, and Hunter pretty much tells him to get over it. She is such a *****, I love her.

Next we get to cameos, cameos, cameos. Let's see, who have I spotted.

Brendan and Margot
Shari... I see she's still hanging out in the Labyrinth. Is she doing double agent work for Thailog? Looks like it.
Greg Weisman's son, Benny.
Long time fans, Mara Cordova and I.... yup, that's right. Between Harry Osborn making fun of me in "The Spectacular Spider-Man" and now walking down street past a Mystery Homeless Guy, I am making the rounds in Weisman's material.

Mara and I strolling down a street in Manhattan.

Thanks, Karine!

Okay, back to the story. Mysterious homeless drifter named Fred climbs into the sewers and makes his way to the Labyrinth. He is greeted by Claw, a couple of homeless people. A sinister looking Shari smiles knowingly at him, and "Fred" walks up to Fang's cell and removes his fake beard, hat and coat revealing the good doctor we all love to hate, Dr. Anton Sevarius, here to release Fang for whatever scheme he has in the works. We also learn Fang's real name.

Cool issue. Had less of a "meet the characters" feel, and more of a story. I eagerly anticipate #3.

 

[Antiyonder]

Brendan and Margot
Shari... I see she's still hanging out in the Labyrinth. Is she doing double agent work for Thailog? Looks like it.
Greg Weisman's son, Benny.
Long time fans, Mara Cordova and I.... yup, that's right. Between Harry Osborn making fun of me in "The Spectacular Spider-Man" and now walking down street past a Mystery Homeless Guy, I am making the rounds in Weisman's material.

How and when did Harry make fun of you?

 

[GregX]

"Bad Guys" #3, "Estranged" picks up where #2 left off and brings us to the familiar territory of the "Gargoyles Universe" version of Manhattan. It's a comfortable setting that we know quite well, and still manages to not detract from the more global setting this book is going for.

Hunter gets a lot of, much needed, fleshing out. For us long time fans, we already knew who she was and where she came from. But for new readers, or those who've been gone for a while, this is something they needed. Especially with Season Two Volume Two not yet on the horizon. While the plot doesn't move at the pace the first two issues did, this issue is all about character development, and that is not a bad thing. Hunter was my favorite member of the team ever since I first saw the leica reel back in 1998.

I loved the flashback, and watching them chase the demon into the Paris catacombs. Very creepy and atmospheric. It also sets up her relationship with her two brothers quite well. Although, I think a brief flashback to Jon accidentally crippling Jason was needed to give newbies more of a glimpse into Jon... whoops, I mean John's pathos.

The scene with Hunter and Jason was touching, and Jason's attitude was commendable. Yeah, he's not happy to be paralyzed, but he's not whining about it. He cowboyed up and is making the best of it.

Hunter and John Castaway, I loved. But the scene was way too short, I wanted more. But then, I get the feeling Hunter did to. But, she got called away. Like a professional, the mission comes first. I do look forward to their next meeting, assuming there is one.

Let's see, who's playing Celebrity Hockey on TV? Why it's (Sheena) Easton, (Diedrich) Bader, (Brent) Spinder, (Jeff) Bennett, (Jim) Belushi, (Cary-Hiroyuki) Tagawa, (William) Devane, (Jim) Cummings, and (Scott) Cleverdon. Or rather, the voice actors for Hunter, Jason, Puck, Matrix (leica reel), Fang, Yama (leica reel), the Director (leica reel), Dingo, and John Castaway. Except for Puck and the Director, everyone of those characters appear in this issue.

Finally, we begin to see the plot thicken. We know Castaway is being funded by the Illuminati, but we get a very strong hint that Hunter has a boss, too. Someone's backing her, and as Castaway said, it's not Canmore money.

Good issue. Looking forward to the next one.

 

[Rembrant]

Issue 3 is out? Already? Man, that was fast! Thank goodness I'm going to the comic book shop tomorrow, gotta catch up to the story, as I'm enjoying this comic better than any other lately. Sure's tough keeping up with the release dates, though.

 

[GregX]

*** BIG BAD SPOILERS ***


Another great issue of "Bad Guys," it ups the ante even more from the last issue. Action packed, and a villain you want to see get beaten up. And great to see Karine Charlebois return after her absence last issue.
Sevarius is, as he's always been, a hammy bastard. But, what a hammy bastard. He destroys peoples' lives, and he has fun while doing it.


The new mutates, I didn't think it was possible, but this is even worse than the first four Mutates. Two of them are just children. Now, they're almost literally insects. It is very strongly implied that this is all being done on Thailog's behalf, which probably makes the clone the perfect employer for Sevarius. Yes, you could really feel Hunter's rage here.


And, when Tasha hung herself... damn. This is an advantage to not having the series on television. Wow.


The scheme to mutate the people at Times Square was just, well, if this is indeed Thailog behind it, he's really stepping up his game. Those poor tourists, because only tourists go to New Year's Eve in Times Square, us natives are at private parties getting plastered (I guess no one invited Brendan and Margot to a party).


We also get more hints as to what Thailog is planning with the DNA he stole from the gargoyles in #5 of the main book. It's not exactly what we thought it was, and knowing Greg, should that surprise us? He keeps throwing us more and more curve balls.


The action was intense, the story was good. It was fun seeing Fang announced as their newest recruit... and everyone looks so happy about it. #3 of "Bad Guys" alluded to Hunter having a superior that she reports to. #4 finally confirmed it. If it was her call, I doubt Fang would be on board.
Now that the team is together, I hope that in #5, ten years after seeing the "Bad Guys" leica reel for the first time, we finally find out what is on that island being protected by those giant robots.


A little comment, of course. I could easily hear Tim Curry and Jim Belushi's voices in my head as I read Fang and Sevarius. Those two are just so over the top, this dialogue is just natural for them. I loved it.


And, cameos, cameos, cameos.


Erin and Benny... Greg mutated his two kids. Cute.


Quite a few at Times Square. Long time fans:
Jennifer L. Anderson... she's the one laughing, and the guy looking back with the "God woman, what is that noise" look amuses me. Funny if you've ever heard her laugh.



Stephanie Lostimolo, the former cover colorist (and colorist for #5 of "Gargoyles") giving Eric "Gorebash" Tribou of Station Eight a noogie. Yup, witnessed that in person too.



Cindy Kinnard making her second cameo in the series, she briefly appeared in #5 at Xanatos's party.



Seth Jackson all the way on the right.


None of them native New Yorkers, because, as I said, only tourists go to Times Square for New Years. Come on people, why? You're not allowed to bring booze, and you'll be freezing your butts off for hours on end. Oh, and you never know when some creepy Rocky Horror Picture Show fan and his Furry thug of a buddy might decide to drop a virus on you!
Great issue, I loved it.
*** END SPOILERS ***

 

[Ian]

Thailog? Really? While it makes sense, I hope that ends up not being the case. I'd much rather have Sevarius as the "big bad" for the series, or have him be working for somebody new.

Random thoughts:

While the Manhattan Clan is, at its core, a super-hero team, Gargoyles the series has always lacked a proper super-villain; there have been evil people, people who are not good, and psychopaths, but there’s never been someone who can inspire fear among the populace…which makes Sevarius all the more daring, and also a bit out of place.

Is Sevarius amoral enough to attempt the "mutate Times Square" plot? Sure. However, I also think he’s smart enough to see that it’s also a horrible, horrible idea.

1) It places Manhattan, and the U.S., in a state of panic which can only be harmful in the long run.

2) It would take more resources than Sevarius--who resorted to freeing Fang in order to have an enforcer--apparently has to collect the data on all those people.

3) Given that The Powers That Be—The Illuminati, Xanatos, whoever is bankrolling Hunter’s group are at least somewhat invested in keeping the Status Quo, I don't see how Sevarius plans to guard himself against reprisal, especially with, again, his apparently limited resources.

Now, could mutating Times Square be Thailog’s idea, as Greg suggests? Sure, there’s nothing in his history to suggest that he’d be against it—after all, we know next to nothing of his long-term plans, if any exist, and he has expressed desire to play God and create gargs and garg/human hybrids. Even so, I don’t see what exactly he’d stand to gain from this. Does he want to accelerate acceptance of “freaks” like mutates and gargoyles? Does he intend to do the opposite and frame the gargoyles for this, hoping that people would accuse them of trying to create sympathy? Then there’s also the fact that he’s a member of the Illuminati, which again, has a stake in the status remaining quo. So again, I think it’s more likely than Sevarius is acting on his own (despite the potential problems I’ve enumerated—then again, perhaps the reason he has been collecting money like mad is precisely to deal with such that) or working for as of yet unknown party. Whoever it is, issue six has a lot of expectations to live up to.

On the other hand, I found myself getting annoyed by Dingo saving Fang, and found it contrived and out of character. While I would have believed that ol’ pragmatic Harry would have avoided murder whenever possible during his days with The Pack, I don’t see why he personally wouldn’t have found it justified here. Could his attempt to prevent Fang from being killed have been out of mere concern for Yama’s mental well-being? Sure, but if so, it comes a bit out of the blue, since there has been little evidence so far that he cares that much. Was Dingo just complying with “no murder” rules set up by Hunter? Again, a totally believable scenario, but it needed to be shown if that was the case. But no: given the information we were actually shown, he was doing it because…well, there’s no reason—because it’s what good guys are expected to do. And to me, that just doesn’t fly.

Putting aside the idea of whether the death penalty is right or wrong, let us just say that choosing one side over the other in the debate doesn’t inherently make a person good or bad. However, in the cartoon as in here, it seems to me that killing is presented as something only “bad guys”, a.k.a., not these guys, despite the book’s title, and to me, that seems incompatible not only with real life, but with Gargoyles message that no one is pure good or evil.

Now, during his first few appearances, Dingo had no qualms about killing gargoyles. He is also not the kind of person to distinguish between sentients. So why again, is he opposed to killing Fang? Maybe I’m barking up the wrong tree, and the scene will be elaborated upon next issue, but as of now, it left a huge bad taste in my mouth.

And now for something completely different. I have to say that it wasn’t until a second reading that I noticed that Tasha had hanged herself. Very effective panel composition there. Also, it took me yet another rereading to realize that three of the four mutates had been briefly seen, pre-mutation, in issue 2. And also, to end on a positive note, I really liked the dialogue for Sevarius. Although he usually gets overshadowed by other members of the rogues gallery, this series has really re-established his place alongside the big boys. And despite my litany of complaints, I’ve been pleasantly surprised by the past couple of issues and enjoying them quite a bit.

 

[DisneyBoy]

Heya GregX or anybody else who would know...

those season two, volume two episodes of the series, as in the ones that haven't been released....

..... *ahem*....




Read between the lines and email me, if you think you could help.

I say no more.

 

[Goodfellow]

A litte OT, but is issue 9 due out this month? My comic shop stopped carrying Gargoyles due to the sporadic release schedules, so I've been having my dad in NY pick them up for me. Same goes for Bad Guys 4.

 

[AlgeaX]

Some new info on the future of the Gargoyles comic from Greg Weisman himself...

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=795

 

[Goodfellow]

WTF? So they pretty much made us waste our money for nothing. THANKS guys! This comic has seemed to be more of a tease than anything. First they make us wait an outrageous amount of time between issues, and now they are pretty much saying, "Thanks for buying our issues, but to get the rest of the arc, you must buy the trade now and double dip on some issues." Next thing they'll be saying they've decided not to do another arc due to poor sales, which will mean that they have done nothing different than the Goliath Chronicles.

 

[DisneyBoy]

So...does this mean that once the trade paperbacks are out, there will be no more new Gargoyles stories written by Greg in a comic book format?

Or will they just release graphic novel style chapters from here on out, instead of monthly books?

What's the future of Gargoyles?

EDIT: Ian, thanks for replying to my inquiry! GregX....where's the love man?

 

[Antiyonder]

Or will they just release graphic novel style chapters from here on out, instead of monthly books?

Graphic Novel format seems to be the intended way of continuing, but hey at least we won't have to double dip to support them, and the story pacings would be better.

 

[Harlan_Phoenix]

WTF? So they pretty much made us waste our money for nothing. THANKS guys! This comic has seemed to be more of a tease than anything. First they make us wait an outrageous amount of time between issues, and now they are pretty much saying, "Thanks for buying our issues, but to get the rest of the arc, you must buy the trade now and double dip on some issues." Next thing they'll be saying they've decided not to do another arc due to poor sales, which will mean that they have done nothing different than the Goliath Chronicles.

No.