"Justice League vs. The Fatal Five" Animated Release Talkback (Spoilers)

[Cartoonfan13]

This talkback and the news thread for it has documented various crew member's social media links, convention videos, fan theories, and analysis that will answer your question if you look back on them.

And The Watchtower Database also answered this question.

 

[Yojimbo]

And The Watchtower Database also answered this question.

Partly why I said "fan theories, and analysis." Many of us have looked at it and hashed it out here, including them.

 

[ganon51]

I enjoyed it...but was also underwhelmed.
The Fatal Five are a pack of dull dogs. They provided good fight scenes but there's nothing interesting about them beyond their designs.
The PG-13 dialogue was more juvenile than adult, especially since nothing else about this movie was PG-13. And even the lighter lines were off. Hearing an alien Green Lantern say "fartnuggets" was only slightly less jarring than nails on a blackboard.
It's nice seeing the old Justice League again, but they're just garnish on the Jessica Cruz/Starboy salad and I wasn't sold on its taste. On one hand, I applaud the movie for tackling serious issues like mental illness, depression, and anxiety; on the other, the selection and handling of those issues felt trendy and calculated. The sacrifice of Starboy was similarly mechanical (he was already a superhero!). The film tries for gravitas without earning it--another example is Cruz quoting Martin Luther King.
The fight scenes and other action sequences move well and fast, and I'm guessing the storyboards would be a pleasure to look at. But there's some clumsy animation involving the cardboard 747 saved by Mr. Terrific. And several of the digital pans and zooms are similarly off.
The joy of seeing JLU resurrected will undoubtedly make many people happy, and though I'm just as prone to DCAU nostalgia as the next Toonzone veteran, I wasn't moved by JL vs. The Fatal Five. The new heroes are an awkward fit with the old gang, who are only there to showcase them. But I hope the movie does well--maybe it'll lead to a real JLU reunion.

This was pretty much my exact same thought back in March

 

[Parker-Shepherd]

This was pretty much my exact same thought back in March

There's been mixed reviews about the movie, some people said it felt like one long JLU episode and others who begged to differ. Though Bruce Timm does consider the film to be canon, there's other DCAU projects that he had nothing to do with and whether they're canon or not, is sometimes subjected to debate.

 

[Cartoonfan13]

There's been mixed reviews about the movie, some people said it felt like one long JLU episode but others who begged to differ. Though Bruce Timm does consider the film canon, there's other DCAU projects that he had nothing to do with and whether they're canon or not, is sometimes subjected to debate.

It's been selling quite well though.

 

[#TeamMike]

I have a question, is Justice League vs The Fatal Five actually canon to the DCAU?

Every time someone asks the creative team this question

On the audio commentary for the film, Timm said that he didn't bother with the timeline or if the film is even in continuity, and that he's a firm believer in "headcanon." Then at Wondercon everyone kept on haranguing Timm, so he basically went "frick it, it's canon" at the panel.

What irritates me about the film is that the decision to use the JLU designs was last minute, and it shows. It basically borrows a few superfical elements to appeal to nostalgic suckers like me, but the film feels completely detached from the old show. Had it been done in a different artsyle with a few musical cues removed, I never would have guessed it was a JLU movie.

There's also an interview where Timm says had he known JLvsF5 would have used the JLU style, he would have done a completely different story (obviously, no surprises there).

 

[Parker-Shepherd]

It's been selling quite well though.

That's what I've heard and it's probably because a lot of DCAU fans have wanted to see something JLU related for a while. Crisis on Two Earths was originally meant to be a DCAU movie but that ended up not happening.

Every time someone asks the creative team this question

On the audio commentary for the film, Timm said that he didn't bother with the timeline or if the film is even in continuity, and that he's a firm believer in "headcanon." Then at Wondercon everyone kept on haranguing Timm, so he basically went "frick it, it's canon" at the panel.

What irritates me about the film is that the decision to use the JLU designs was last minute, and it shows. It basically borrows a few superfical elements to appeal to nostalgic suckers like me, but the film feels completely detached from the old show. Had it been done in a different artsyle with a few musical cues removed, I never would have guessed it was a JLU movie.

There's also an interview where Timm says had he known JLvsF5 would have used the JLU style, he would have done a completely different story (obviously, no surprises there).

Huh, didn't know that about Bruce Timm. Eric Carassco once mentioned he had a large stack of Legion of Superhero comics that he went through when trying to figure out whether or not to make the story an adaptation, but it ended up being an original story.

There's actually several people who watched the credits in the movie to see if there was a scene afterwards, which does happen in some of the DC animated films.

 

[iammattie]

I want to agree with him, but the DCAU wiki doesn't mention of it either

As others have pointed out already, this conversation has been done to death. We tried to be as thurough as possible in the WDB video regarding it, and others have had the same convo here and elsewhere.

Just wanted to point out though that the DCAU Wiki is a fan site just like WDb, DCAUResource, ToonZone, World's Finest or any of the others, and at the end of the day what any of us have to say matters nothing in comparison to what's said by those who worked on the movie or own the property. I've had this convo with DCAU Wiki, gave them our reasoning, and they decided for their purposes it wasn't enough to be thurough about it on their site, though a lot of their arguments contradicted stuff that they already included on their site.

From what I gather, they (like many fans) treat the DCAU as a closed book, and that's fine. At the end of the day, what does the label of canon really ad to any of this?

Timm has been about headcanon since Batman Beyond at the very least. He saiys he doesnt decide canon because their are films that he didnt work on that are considered canon, so one would assume that means WB is the arbiter, but WB PR has consistently said the canon question belongs to Timm (which is why he asked him on the panel). At the end of the day, from what I gather, Timm just wants to make the movies he wants to make and doesn't really care about the fanboy disputes, which is honestly probably the healthiest viewpoint. If you like it, throw it in with your DCAU marathons, if you don't, then skip it.

 

[#TeamMike]

From what I gather, they (like many fans) treat the DCAU as a closed book, and that's fine. At the end of the day, what does the label of canon really ad to any of this?

That's exactly my problem. The DCAU has been a closed book for god knows how long, and "Destroyer" was a spectacular and conclusive finish to JLU.

This is about as perfect an ending for this show as you can get

If you decide years later to bring it back, you better have a good reason for doing so. JLvsF5 slaps some JLU designs, and according to some people we're supposed to accept this as a JLU movie, because with headcanon we can fit into the DCAU! I have no problem if people want to treat it as such, as everyone has their timelines and theories.

But calling this a JLU movie/continuation is disingenuous, especially since Timm has straight up admitted he would have done a completely different story had he known.

If B.T. truly wishes to return to the DCAU, do it right. I completely get the appeal of doing a standalone story, but don't blatantly disregard continuity. Use the same voice cast and keep the same tone. All the DCAU "style" inspired DTV's that have come after JLU have all suffered from this, such as Superman: Brainiac Attacks, Batman and Harley Quinn, and to a lesser extent, Justice League vs The Fatal Five (yes I l know Timm wasn't involved with BA, but that's not the point). One of the greatest joys of JLU was it's use of continuity, like bringing back storylines from B:TAS/S:TAS, and bringing back characters and voice actors/actresses from previous shows. This is a universe that tons of people grew up on and hold near and dear to their hearts, myself included. As a fan, I don't think I'm asking much for it to be treated with some respect.

Personally, I'd prefer they leave it alone, and the DTV's have only confirmed my thoughts on the matter.

I wish Timm had stuck to his guns and done this movie with the Crisis on Two Earths/Doom designs. Ironically, in an attempt to avoid confusion with the James Tucker led films, the decision to use the JLU designs has only led to more confusion and debates.

 

[Fone Bone]

Wow, I think people are looking at the inconsistencies completely wrong. Instead of saying "Well, Hal's on a statue so it doesn't fit" the correct perspective is "How could it fit?" and to come up with your own explanation. That was the best thing about Twin Peaks, and Bruce Timm is a fan. Put in some of the work yourself, and don't expect your continuity to do all the heavy lifting for you. The actual debate is over HOW the inconsistencies are true, not whether or not they are.

 

[#TeamMike]

Wow, I think people are looking at the inconsistencies completely wrong. Instead of saying "Well, Hal's on a statue so it doesn't fit" the correct perspective is "How could it fit?" and to come up with your own explanation. That was the best thing about Twin Peaks, and Bruce Timm is a fan. Put in some of the work yourself, and don't expect your continuity to do all the heavy lifting for you. The actual debate is over HOW the inconsistencies are true, not whether or not they are.

I guess I don't think that way. There's a huge difference between leaving things open for interpretation, vs hand waving things away for fans to figure out continuity "errors". That's just lazy and counterproductive.

But that's not where my frustration dwells from. I was more expressing annoyance over the fact that JlvF5 was not intended to be a JLU movie at all, and it shows. It was conceived, written, and recorded as a completely original story.

If B.T. truly wishes to return to the DCAU, do it the right way. Not this half assed yes/no thing that's been going on. Again, I would much rather leave the DCAU alone, which is a sentiment Timm seemed to agree with for many years, but I guess he's recently softened his stance?

My greatest fear is getting DTV's that sour the legacy of the DCAU, especially with so much of the original creative team gone. Just look at Batman and Harley Quinn in comparison to B:TAS, remember the absolute vitriol that film caused?

 

[Fone Bone]

I guess I don't think that way. There's a huge difference between leaving things open for interpretation, vs hand waving things away for fans to figure out continuity "errors". That's just lazy and counterproductive.

It's not. It's fun.

But that's not where my frustration dwells from. I was more expressing annoyance over the fact that JlvF5 was not intended to be a JLU movie at all, and it shows. It was conceived, written, and recorded as a completely original story.

If B.T. truly wishes to return to the DCAU, do it the right way. Not this half assed yes/no thing that's been going on. Again, I would much rather leave the DCAU alone, which is a sentiment Timm seemed to agree with for many years, but I guess he's recently softened his stance?

My greatest fear is getting DTV's that sour the legacy of the DCAU, especially with so much of the original creative team gone. Just look at Batman and Harley Quinn in comparison to B:TAS, remember the absolute vitriol that film caused?

That was a crappy film for sure. And I don't think JLVFF was actually THAT great. But the continuity stuff was not actually a problem for me. It was a selling point.

 

[#TeamMike]

It's not. It's fun.That was a crappy film for sure. And I don't think JLVFF was actually THAT great. But the continuity stuff was not actually a problem for me. It was a selling point.

I liked Justice League vs the Fatal Five on its own merits (just see my post on the first page), but once the initial excitement at seeing the JLU designs wore off, it kind of landed on the forgettable spectrum for me, similar to films like Mystery of the Batwoman. Going by it's meager 6.5/10 IMDB rating, and general internet chatter, it seems lots of fans feel that way too. I've seen more people use it as a rallying flag for the #JLreunion, rather than talking about the film itself.

Your last point though confuses me, how can continuity be a selling point for you if JlvsF5 was not intended to be a JLU movie?

Maybe I've turned into a cynical fart who doesn't want to see muh childhood get ruined, and I get my opinion especially on this board is an unpopular one. But when the creative team members like James Tucker express reluctancy about doing more JLU, I think that's saying something.

 

[Parker-Shepherd]

There's a lot of continuities that have different problems. Look at Disney and some of it's direct to DVD sequels as well as the multiple Land Before Time sequels, plus the animated series.

But anyway... Bruce Timm has said he supports the concept of head-canon, plus there's DCAU projects he's never worked on but they're considered canon, regardless.

 

[Yojimbo]

James Tucker says they went into Justice League Infinity thinking it takes place before Justice League vs. The Fatal Five.

Bruce Timm did say JLvsFF is 1-3 years after Destroyer and in JLI #1 J'onn says he's been traveling around for years. So JLI taking place in a 3 year gap btw Destroyer and JLvsFF works in theory.