The Spectacular Spider-Man "The Uncertainty Principle" Talkback (Spoilers)

[W.C.Reaf]

Ok I'm not sure what I can add here that hasn't already been said.

This episode was great. The writers sure know how to play with their audience. First before we see Harry with "the green" at the Fall Formal people were saying that maybe Harry would become the Goblin first, then after the Formal they were going "It's too obvious" and "Red herring", and now about half the guys on here think Harry is the Goblin.

Well played gentlemen, well played indeed.

Am I the only one thinking Black Cat had just pulled off a robbery and decided to hide in plain sight and put the goods into a classic sack with a $ on it?

Also was that a silenced pistol Hammerheads driver was using? It sounded like one as well. Hmmm so BS&P allow silenced weapons, aye.

BTW I don't think Harry's the Goblin. Weisman and Co managed to have their cake and eat it too because it's a little too soon to fine out the real identity of the Goblin, yet it raps up the Goblin arc satisfactorily and gives reason why the Goblin won't be around till the next season.

*claps* well done. Very well done, good sirs.

 

[Arsenal]

I'm in the small camp that was underwhelmed by the "Uncertainty Principle."

That's not to say the episode wasn't well done. The writing and acting were solid, and the animation, great. (This has easily been the best looking Spidey cartoon.) This wasn't a bad episode.

However, I did not dig the Green Goblin reveal, and because "Uncertainty Principle" centers around the revelation of who the Goblin is, it hampers the entire episode.

For the first time after watching an episode of Spectacular Spider-Man, I felt let down. Now, that's not completely the fault of the show. Previous episodes and the acumen of the creators have me expecting a lot.

One of the unfortunate results of quality output, which Spec Spidey has had, is higher expectations. Were this most other shows, I'd be satisfied, but I guess I expected more than a clear cut, "Hey, it's Harry doing violent stuff while he's blacked out."

Weisman is very good at twists and surprises. He fit a litany of backstabs and shocks into Season 2 of WITCH and Gargoyles was a master study in ambigous, shifting alliances. With that to his credit, this episode seemed... too straightforward. (I almost typed simple but that's the wrong word.) Neither Norman or Harry neatly work at face value as the goblin for reasons listed by previous posters.

Now, it's possible that Weisman has a bonus reveal planned--Norman and a Norman-manipulated Harry were platooning. That would be a wicked twist others have suggested. There could also be a third party involved, but that might muddy some already swampy waters.

This episode may look better in hindsight, depending on where this route takes Harry, Norman and Peter. But, for now, I feel un-wowed, and after a string of not just good but great episodes, it's a tad disappointing.

But not to be a complete downer, I bring you Arsenal's list of Things that were totally freakin' awesome:

1. How cool is Tombstone? No, seriously. This show might very well do for Tombstone what JLU did for The Question. Take a marginalized, bit character and give him some recognition.

2. Points to the creative team for MJ, Liz and Gwen. They are a triptych of very different girls who have different relationships with Peter. Some cartoons have a bad habit of making cookie-cutter supporting characters. Not this show, and they've done an especially good job with the girls.

The proof of this is in the pudding. I have a 7-year-old sister who doesn't watch the show for Spider-Man. She just likes Gwen and MJ. If female characters were always given this much respect in comic book properties, there'd be more women reading comics (and no need for sites like Women in Refrigerators.)

3. The Halloween costumes--The creators used the costumes to insert a little humor and tell us something about the characters. They also managed to harken back a couple episodes to Flash's lost bet. Points awarded.

4. Harry's freakout on Gwen. His later freakout with Norman and Peter lacked the chutzpah to convince me he was a credible Green Goblin, but his one with Gwen was great. That's what a teenage 'roid addict might sound like, probably my favorite Harry scene thus far.

 

[kid rabbit]

you know I'm surprise a lot of you underestmate Harry
he was a better goblin in the comics and movies with you can't help but laught at him Harry gave an expresstion he'd snap your neck if you push him too far

 

[Anwar]

I suppose most people didn't take Harry as much of a Goblin because he only wanted revenge on Peter at first and lacked Norman's overall threat since he wanted more than that.

Thank to J.M. Demattis Harry became a real successor to Norman's throne but died at the same time.

He did manage to do something no one else had done before: Break Peter. He drove him mad and made him reject his Peter Parker identity for a while. Norman later also managed to make Peter nuts but Harry did it first.

 

[Ian]

Mind-blowing. Not the revelation of the Goblin's true identity, but a realization I came to this episode: Flash Thompson is a much more likeable character than Gwen Stacy.

Sure, the guy's a jerk, but it's the kind of jerk he'll eventually outgrow: at least he can have fun, even if it's at his expense. Gwen, on the other hand, has fallen into the same trap Gargoyles' Brooklyn is currently in: all fun and no play make Gwendolyn a dull girl. At least Brooklyn had two seasons of normalcy before going all wangsty; with Gwen, it's pretty much all we've seen of her--making it hard for me to identify or like her. For one of the few character who actually appears in the opening credits every episode, this is not a good place to be--as it is, I have no idea why she and Peter ever got to be friends--something that could also be said for Harry: what did Peter ever see in him? Given the show's overall excellent plotting, it's a rather glaring misstep, and perhaps a sign that Weisman and Co. may be attempting too much, too soon, at least on this aspect of the Spider-verse.

As for the rest of the episode, it was fine as usual. Everything Big Man related rocked, the Goblin rocked--he reminds me a lot of Gargoyles' Puck, (even down to the voice) which I'm sure is completely intentional; and the fights rocked. Not the best episode--that one is still The Invisible Hand--but still a strong contender for cartoon of the week.

The final scene at the Osborn residence was... great. Norman is such a manipulative bastard, and I really felt for Harry. But this is the finest case of "the writers are trying to trick you" that I have ever seen. Now, Harry is taking a leave of absence. I hope we see him again soon.

Harry as the Green Goblin just does not add up.
* When the Goblin stole the tech-flight glider from OsCorp, it didn't have the bat-head designed to fire pumpkin bombs and extend a spear on it yet. Harry does not have the technical know-how to add on a feature like that. Norman does. Or the expertise to add that Inhibitor cannon to it. Harry's a moron.
* If Harry were the Green Goblin, he would have attacked the Fall Formal instead of going after Tombstone.
* How would Harry even have access to the Globulin Green in the first place?
* Why would Harry attempt to kill Octavius? Norman knew Otto was a liability, Hammerhead said so in "The Invisible Hand". Norman berated Otto for being a weak man. Then he dressed up as the Goblin so he would have an alibi to show Hammerhead.
* The Green Goblin and Norman Osborn both had the same safety key for Otto's experiment.
* The Big Man was only ever referred to as "Mr. Lincoln" by Norman once and that was in the underground lab while Rhino was being created. Harry could not have overheard that.
* Norman Osborn just so happens to have a secret chamber, which we never saw the inside of. Where's Harry keeping the glider and equipment... not under his bed. For that matter, stealing one or two vials of Globulin Green, I can buy... but we've seen Harry drink from too many.
* Norman's knowing smirk at the end of "Reaction" about unmasking the Goblin before it's too late.
* Peter tipped his hand, told the Goblin he figured out who he was. The Goblin knew Spidey would be coming to the Osborn residence.
* Harry in "Goblin mode" didn't admit to anything except taking the drug. To be the son Norman always wanted. A straight A student and a star athlete.
* Norman is thrown twenty feet up a wall by Harry and is uninjured.
* And it was Norman himself who rationalized it all at the end (a very rehearsed sounding explanation). Then offered to take he fall.

No, Harry was set up. By his own father.

Logical points, but still not entirely convincing. For the charade to be effective, the Goblin will need to be put on ice for a while--before completing his stated goal of taking over The Big Man. Sure, it doesn't stop Norman from attempting it via some other, less flashy method, but if he could do that, why attempt something like the Goblin at all?

Not only that, but setting up Harry to make Spidey believe that the younger Osborn is the goblin is a bit risky: while Spider-Man wouldn't have a clue where Harry was the night of the first goblin attack, Peter Parker would. In Norman's mind, what's to stop Parker from telling Spider-Man what he knows--that Harry was at the party?

As some people have said, neither explanation completely explains all the events thus far--more information is needed.

 

[saherrin]

I also agree with GregX about JJJ. For the first time that I can remember watching or reading Spider-Man, I felt sympathetic toward JJJ. The quick transformation back to hardbutt JJJ was expected but for those scenes I genuinely felt awlful for the character (btw, I can't remember who said it, but I'm starting to expect something bad with Ned Lee, especially with the comment he made during the initial walk-up to the shuttle landing. Something to the effect "if he survives" in a derisive manner, before Betty shoes everyone out of JJJ's office.)

On the cameo front, nice to see Prof. Warren and, hey, Black Cat make an appearence. Peter's life might get really complicated with Gwen, MJ and possibly Felicia. To paraphrase Barack Obama, who knew Peter Parker was such a playa?

I also loved (as mentioned ealier) Green Goblin's shattering of the fourth wall about the deja vu feeling. My wife, who hates cartoons, even chuckled at that line. If you can get her to laugh, you've done your job.

I'm interested in the Spider-Man/Tombstone dyad. Tombstone is leading Spider-Man into some gray areas that will, utlimately, make him a better hero if he can sort through the rhetoric and stay true to his cause. It's impressive writing to do for a show aimed (centrally) at young people. I appreciate the dialogue (as well as the action) druing the refinery/mill fight scene.

I also love the I do hope that there is more (probably is) to the Norman/Harry/Goblin plot line - they've done such a great job building it up it would be kind of a waste to rush it's conclusion.

That's probably the one question I have for the show so far and hope that this becomes table settings for later episodes and seasons - we've seen a quick succession of villains in the span of a few short weeks. I fully understand that the Sinister Six make their debut in a couple of weeks. It would be way too fast (even for a cartoon) to conclude the Goblin storyline this quickly. I have faith that the writers and producers, who so far have done a stellar job, will fully develop ideas and characters to where we have a Cadmus storyline, much like I hope they do with Venom.

BTW, I have one small nitpick. WHen the shuttle landed and they carted it to the hanger, did anyone bother to check the shuttle for cracks or dents or mysterious black glop on the outside? It would seem like standard operating procedures.

Looking forward to the Chameleon and many more great shows. Thanks everyone.

 

[W.C.Reaf]

Sure, the guy's a jerk, but it's the kind of jerk he'll eventually outgrow: at least he can have fun, even if it's at his expense. Gwen, on the other hand, has fallen into the same trap Gargoyles' Brooklyn is currently in: all fun and no play make Gwendolyn a dull girl. At least Brooklyn had two seasons of normalcy before going all wangsty; with Gwen, it's pretty much all we've seen of her--making it hard for me to identify or like her. For one of the few character who actually appears in the opening credits every episode, this is not a good place to be--as it is, I have no idea why she and Peter ever got to be friends--something that could also be said for Harry: what did Peter ever see in him? Given the show's overall excellent plotting, it's a rather glaring misstep, and perhaps a sign that Weisman and Co. may be attempting too much, too soon, at least on this aspect of the Spider-verse.

Gwen's just trying to help her friends. Harry's going down a very dark path and, in her eyes, Peter's not caring about it so she's a little bit mad at him for it. She's also got a big ol' crush on Peter but doesn't have enough confidence to say anything to him.

I think the problem with Gwen is that she's in the middle. Harry got bit by the popularity bug early on and was trying to do something about it, and now has a drug problem. Eddie will soon become Venom and hate Peter/Spidey, so if something happened to Gwen this season it'd look like none of Peter's friends can catch a break.

Although it would be nice to see some of her home life and her father, but there's only so much you can get into one season.

 

[Krypton_Knight]

The man who'd rather die than apolpgize accepts responsibility for something he allegedly didn't do.

Riiiiiiiight. Sure.

KK

 

[Nygma]

Back for more, after a rewatch.

If Harry has indeed the been the mastermind behind all Goblin-related affairs in this show and had, in fact, been behind the mask for the past three episodes in their entirety, then you can consider my enthusiasm for this series plummeted. Why anyone would be excited about this revelation is beyond me - it would be a TERRIBLE and incredibly underwhelming revelation. What does making Harry the true goblin accomplish in the grand scheme of things? It's totally illogical, robs the Goblin of the intrigue that surrounds him as a character

I think people that voted this 5 stars fall under the camp that don't believe Harry is the Green Goblin, and that it was a set up. But I agree, the Goblin from tactics to personality has been handled so well to this point that making the Goblin (who's been portrayed as a brilliant tactician) would be some punk kid is a come down. Me, personally I think there's too much that's been shown on screen that Norman Osborn has to have a part in this. Remember that part where Norman came up with the idea that Harry created an alter-ego, to attack the Big Man, that was pretty convenient excuse to use right on the spot wasn't it.

But the problem with Norman as The Green Goblin is that he doesn't have a convincing motivation to become the Goblin. At least from what we've seen so far.

However, I did not dig the Green Goblin reveal, and because "Uncertainty Principle" centers around the revelation of who the Goblin is, it hampers the entire episode.

For the first time after watching an episode of Spectacular Spider-Man, I felt let down. Now, that's not completely the fault of the show. Previous episodes and the acumen of the creators have me expecting a lot.

So did I, at least when I watched this the first time (God bless TIVO!), but the 2nd time around I saw too many suspicious elements that convinced that the Goblin business is far from over.

One of the unfortunate results of quality output, which Spec Spidey has had, is higher expectations. Were this most other shows, I'd be satisfied, but I guess I expected more than a clear cut, "Hey, it's Harry doing violent stuff while he's blacked out."

Weisman is very good at twists and surprises. He fit a litany of backstabs and shocks into Season 2 of WITCH and Gargoyles was a master study in ambigous, shifting alliances. With that to his credit, this episode seemed... too straightforward. (I almost typed simple but that's the wrong word.) Neither Norman or Harry neatly work at face value as the goblin for reasons listed by previous posters.

I think this might be one of those episodes where they had to take one step back to take 3 steps forward. I think down the road this might look better, but I do have concerns about how they are going to bring the Goblin back, that could be tricky. But Greg Weisman's usually a big picture guy, so I'm hoping this will turn out better in the long run. Does anybody know if Weisman and co. did this episode with the knowledge that they were getting a second season?

How cool is Tombstone? No, seriously. This show might very well do for Tombstone what JLU did for The Question. Take a marginalized, bit character and give him some recognition.

I know I said this before but I think it bears repeating, this shows version of The Big Man/Tombstone could turn out to be cooler then the 90's version of The Kingpin. And I still think it's true, this version of Tombstone kicks ass. From his interactions with Spidey and the Goblin, to the way he presents himself. Oh and that part where his back takes all those slicers, was just sick.

Points to the creative team for MJ, Liz and Gwen. They are a triptych of very different girls who have different relationships with Peter. Some cartoons have a bad habit of making cookie-cutter supporting characters. Not this show, and they've done an especially good job with the girls.

The proof of this is in the pudding. I have a 7-year-old sister who doesn't watch the show for Spider-Man. She just likes Gwen and MJ. If female characters were always given this much respect in comic book properties, there'd be more women reading comics (and no need for sites like Women in Refrigerators.)

3. The Halloween costumes--The creators used the costumes to insert a little humor and tell us something about the characters. They also managed to harken back a couple episodes to Flash's lost bet. Points awarded.

I think credit should go to Weisman and co. for capturing the tone of the high school shenanigans perfectly. Usually some shows have annoyed me with this stuff in the past (Static Shock, X-Men Evolution, and Batman Beyond to a certain extent). But the high school stuff in this show doesn't bother me in the slightest. Kind of reminds me of how Kim Possible, American Dragon: Jake Long, and even Buffy The Vampire Slayer (Seasons 1-3 of course) handled this stuff. Hopefully they keep this up.

Harry's freakout on Gwen. His later freakout with Norman and Peter lacked the chutzpah to convince me he was a credible Green Goblin, but his one with Gwen was great. That's what a teenage 'roid addict might sound like, probably my favorite Harry scene thus far.

I especially like that part where you can see the Goblin's eye through the potion.

 

[Donomark]

^Yeah, I noticed that too. And your right, we haven't seen any maliciousness in Norman's character on the show yet.

I actually called Harry really being the goblin last week. It was just too obvious a mislead for it not to be true. That's not to say I still wasn't surprised. The actual plot notwithstanding, the whole scene at Osborn's penthouse was one of the best scenes in the entire show. One thing though, everytime Spider-Man or Osborn questioned Harry's motives for being the Goblin, Harry convinently answered while at the same time appearing lost in his own world. That's the tip off for me that Norman, bastard as he is, staged the whole thing. It's like the Hobgoblin mystery in the comics. I believe Harry was the Goblin when Peter fought him at Oscorp, but I don't think he's always been the Goblin.

Another thing is that this is the first time ever that Harry has in any shape or form talked back to his dad. Remember back to that sly grin when Norman kicked him out after Harry tried to tell him about football and going out with Glory Grant. This Harry, one way or another, wasn't afraid to show his father how he really felt about him, and this has never been done in the comics. Harry's always been a wimp under Norman's foot, even after Norman "died". So I was pretty pumped when Harry nearly broke Osnorn's wrist and went nuts on him.

 

[Katsumara]

So much already said, so I'll keep it short and sweet.

I absolutely loved this episode. From the cameos to the banter between GG and Spidey, to the Space shuttle parts, and back to the main plot... it was all handled excellently.

I swear though. The back and forth between Green Goblin and Spidey is just so great. The Hammerhead/Tombstone stuff was awesome as well.

As far as the Gwen/Peter/MJ/Liz interactions go, they were handled great too. I loved how MJ pushed Flash back and said she was a free-agent. Way to go, MJ! The Felicia cameo was too good as well and I liked Liz's line as well about "You can web me up any time." That was good. Gwen's "Someone's getting the look." was great too.

I just can't find many faults with this series. One of the best reincarnations of a superhero we've seen in a long, long time I feel. I just can't wait for next week.

 

[Anarky]

I read Greg X's post.

If he's right about The Chameleon's appearance next week, the timing is all too convenient. I'd wager The Chameleon is under Osborn's employ hence the Norman we saw enter OsCorp through the front door at night IS The Chameleon in disguise. The Green Goblin that raids OsCorp in the presence of "Norman" is actually the real Norman. One can also guess that Norman has been onto Harry's addiction for some time and while he wants to help his son, he also sees an opportunity to fake out Spidey, Tombstone, or the cops should anyone question him about his connections to the Goblin's rampages.

I wouldn't put any of these allegations past Norm.

 

[Nightwing]

"If Harry were the Green Goblin, he would have attacked the Fall Formal instead of going after Tombstone." Why? The Green Goblin, from my interpretations in prior uses in other series and the comics, is a different personality completely separate from that of the associated Osborn.

The Green Goblin is not always a multiple personality case. If he will be in this show, then Harry's mind will have created the Goblin to take care of things for him, because he can't do those particular things himself. Therefore, he would very likely target the Fall Formal, and beat up Harry's social enemies, before either Harry or Goblin-Personality would think about career choices (going after Tombstone, etc).

I still agree that the jury is still out, of course. I just have a chip on my shoulder because Norman and I aren't exactly "friends."

Mind-blowing. Not the revelation of the Goblin's true identity, but a realization I came to this episode: Flash Thompson is a much more likeable character than Gwen Stacy.

I agree with Reaf. Gwen is the only voice of reason, plus she has a thing for Peter that she is too shy to express. I wouldn't say Flash has the ability to have fun simply because he agreed to the terms of the bet. 98% of Flash's fun is always at someone else's expense.

I appreciate and agree with the cautions that fans want the show to take with borrowing inspiration from Spider-man 3 for symbiote stuff, but I don't know if I'd worry about it. Sure, the suit will look like the variation used in the movie, but that might only be a choice made for aesthetic reasons: just the look they want, be it temporary or for the full time he wears it.

 

[ROBOTRON]

I wonder (looking back at the eppy again) if that was the real Black Cat in this episode. I now notice the bag she was carrying had a dollar sign on it like it was an actual bag of cash. Coincidence? Tongue in cheek cameo shot or what?

 

[W.C.Reaf]

I wonder (looking back at the eppy again) if that was the real Black Cat in this episode. I now notice the bag she was carrying had a dollar sign on it like it was an actual bag of cash. Coincidence? Tongue in cheek cameo shot or what?

Well since Black Cat is set to appear next episode, I think, I don't think that was someone dressed up as her. I still maintain it was her just after a job and hiding in plain sight.

 

[bigdeath]

Hello, black ooze. Wonder what that was....

Great final battle with the Green Goblin.

All in all, I love this show!

So MJ likes to flirt all the time but is never serious...You know I hate and love that girl all at the same time.

 

[Treason]

A note about the photograph(s) in The Big Man's office. It looked more like some kind of 'associate' rather than his wife. He's shaking her hand. The same woman also appears in the next photo along with JJJ and Norman (The "Green Gosbourn")

As for who really is the Green Goblin... that was a pretty mean pumpkin John Jameson tossed in the shuttle. Are there TWO Chameleons???

I am enjoying this incarnation of Spidy, and enjoying your comments afterwards.

Keep up the good work

Treason

 

[Wonderwall]

you know I'm surprise a lot of you underestmate Harry
he was a better goblin in the comics and movies with you can't help but laught at him Harry gave an expresstion he'd snap your neck if you push him too far

Shudder, Gasp, that someone might have a different opinion on a character. What has this world come to.

Anyway back on topic, I liked this episode a lot, the humor, the twists, the villains, the action. That factory bit was pretty damn awesome, also lasted for quite a bit of time. The cool thing about Spidey is that he's powerful enough to have super powered battles, but he can still be killed by hot lead like a regular person, so there was a lot of tension in the fight.

I'm in the camp that Norman probably has something up his sleeve, there's too much there to say that he has something going on. But for now Harry is the green goblin, a little underwhelming, but luckily the writing is top notch so I didn't mind that Harry was the Goblin too much. I'm sure that Norman will eventually get crowned as true Goblin, but Harry will do for now as well.

I liked the little character moments as well from the sub-plot, I kind of felt bad for JJ, but its actually a very true statement about how the media works. I kind of felt that the landing of the shuttle was the weakest part, all of a sudden it goes from entering orbit to the runway in about 3 seconds, I think that could've been done better, also the CGI was a little dodgy at that part. But that's a minor thing. Over all a much better episode from last week.

 

[bigdeath]

all of a sudden it goes from entering orbit to the runway in about 3 seconds, I think that could've been done better

You wanted them to waste time with the Shuttle landing?!

 

[Wonderwall]

You wanted them to waste time with the Shuttle landing?!

It went from small flames in the sky to landing on the runway on the next shot. Another close shot of the shuttle in the sky for another 3 seconds would've sufficed. Yea real waste of time right buddy?