The Spectacular Spider-Man "The Uncertainty Principle" Talkback (Spoilers)

[theRedDeath]

Good episode, but i'm not convinced that Harry is the Goblin.

Norman coming out of his secret compartment, I could buy as being unrelated, Norman being a super nice guy at the end I could accept as him just trying too at least look nice. But what I don't buy is...

Him coming into Oscorp. through the front door, coincidentally right before the GG attacks. That SCREAMS to me that Norman knew the attack was going to happen, and that he wanted to be seen first; to have an alibi.

That means either Norman is still the GG and he just set up Harry to be the GG just this one time, or Norman ALWAYS KNEW Harry was the Goblin and has been using and manipulating Harry the whole time.

Also, is anybody else curious about Mrs. Osborn's role in all this? She's been absent since her first appearance, and has never been referenced. Maybe I was right with my first idea: That Harry only imagined her, because he's been disturbed before the show even started.

---

 

[creativerealms]

Anyway I agree with Greg. Now for Harry getting the Green I think he stoll it without Norman knowing at first but once Normal started planning to take over as crimeboss he knew what Harry was doing and allowed his son to keep stealing the formula because he knew he could use it later on.

 

[Grenzer]

Count me in the "Norman set up Harry" camp. Norman is a cold-blooded psycho, always has been, so doing something that dispicable is hardly beyond his character. I did not realize the Chameleon was showing up next episode, but his presence could easily explain how Norman was able to cover his tracks. I just assumed it was either a hologram of some sort or even a mercenary like Jason Macendale.

 

[Darklordavaitor]

Harry as the Green Goblin just does not add up.
* When the Goblin stole the tech-flight glider from OsCorp, it didn't have the bat-head designed to fire pumpkin bombs and extend a spear on it yet. Harry does not have the technical know-how to add on a feature like that. Norman does. Or the expertise to add that Inhibitor cannon to it. Harry's a moron.
* If Harry were the Green Goblin, he would have attacked the Fall Formal instead of going after Tombstone.
* How would Harry even have access to the Globulin Green in the first place?
* Why would Harry attempt to kill Octavius? Norman knew Otto was a liability, Hammerhead said so in "The Invisible Hand". Norman berated Otto for being a weak man. Then he dressed up as the Goblin so he would have an alibi to show Hammerhead.
* The Green Goblin and Norman Osborn both had the same safety key for Otto's experiment.
* The Big Man was only ever referred to as "Mr. Lincoln" by Norman once and that was in the underground lab while Rhino was being created. Harry could not have overheard that.
* Norman Osborn just so happens to have a secret chamber, which we never saw the inside of. Where's Harry keeping the glider and equipment... not under his bed. For that matter, stealing one or two vials of Globulin Green, I can buy... but we've seen Harry drink from too many.
* Norman's knowing smirk at the end of "Reaction" about unmasking the Goblin before it's too late.
* Peter tipped his hand, told the Goblin he figured out who he was. The Goblin knew Spidey would be coming to the Osborn residence.
* Harry in "Goblin mode" didn't admit to anything except taking the drug. To be the son Norman always wanted. A straight A student and a star athlete.
* Norman is thrown twenty feet up a wall by Harry and is uninjured.
* And it was Norman himself who rationalized it all at the end (a very rehearsed sounding explanation). Then offered to take he fall.

No, Harry was set up. By his own father.

Put me in the camp that agrees with you.

Great stuff, I'm just shocked that we got away with all of this. I wonder if Felicia is bound to appear anytime soon, if Black Cat's well-known enough to have a costume inspired by her.

 

[Aldrius]

It's a pretty far stretch at this point to argue that Norman was the Goblin and the villain-ness was somehow passed on to Harry without his even knowing it.

How is it a far stretch?

Harry doesn't remember being the goblin. He just knows he's been blacking out, and when he's blacked out he doesn't remember what he was doing. He's not admitting to being the Goblin, he's admitting that he doesn't know. And now Peter AND Harry are assuming that it's him. Because that's where all the evidence points, but it's not very much evidence.

And no one is denying that he's been drinking goblin juice. Just that he might not be the Green Goblin.

Now, I'm not saying it's DEFINITELY Norman. Keeping an open mind is not a bad thing. But it's not a SURE thing that it's Harry. It's just a sure thing that A) It's not both of them. B) It's one of them.

The one thing that makes me doubt it is the fact that Norman would even bother staging an alibi. Now, it helps to have one's bases covered but who would he be staging it for? The audience is the only person. Which is fine, it's just... dubious in a sense.

 

[GregX]

How is it a far stretch?

Harry doesn't remember being the goblin. He just knows he's been blacking out, and when he's blacked out he doesn't remember what he was doing. He's not admitting to being the Goblin, he's admitting that he doesn't know. And now Peter AND Harry are assuming that it's him. Because that's where all the evidence points, but it's not very much evidence.

And no one is denying that he's been drinking goblin juice. Just that he might not be the Green Goblin.

Now, I'm not saying it's DEFINITELY Norman. Keeping an open mind is not a bad thing. But it's not a SURE thing that it's Harry. It's just a sure thing that A) It's not both of them. B) It's one of them.

The one thing that makes me doubt it is the fact that Norman would even bother staging an alibi. Now, it helps to have one's bases covered but who would he be staging it for? The audience is the only person. Which is fine, it's just... dubious in a sense.

If you're referring to the end of the episode. Spider-Man said "I know you are Norman Osborn." Norman would have known to expect a visit, and thus stage it.

If you're referring to OsCorp, the Norman who surprised the guard by walking in through the front door... I don't think was Norman. Chameleon is showing up next week.

 

[Reg]

This episode showed why Norman Osborn is who he is. Setting up the trap to eliminate Spidey & Tombstone AND setting up his own son. Bravo.

 

[Aldrius]

If you're referring to OsCorp, the Norman who surprised the guard by walking in through the front door... I don't think was Norman. Chameleon is showing up next week.

Referring to that.

Oh. Right. I confused myself, I was saying that I didn't know why Osbourn would stage an alibi for himself when there was no accusor. But then who's to say the Chameleon is there on Osbourn's dime? And isn't just stealing company secrets?

 

[StellaMagic]

That's low even for Osborn, but remember, another personality is at work. In the comics, Norman has two personalities: himself and the Goblin. The Goblin may be the true mastermind at work.

 

[GregX]

That's low even for Osborn, but remember, another personality is at work. In the comics, Norman has two personalities: himself and the Goblin. The Goblin may be the true mastermind at work.

In the Semper cartoon and in the movies. In the comics, there was no split personality. Recurring amnesia, but Osborn and the Goblin were always the same.

 

[Anwar]

Pretty much. It sometimes seemed like it was a split personality thing but it was always just an amnesia barrier keeping Norman from becoming the Goblin.

Strange though, when you consider that he was a nice enough guy as normal Norman to go out with Peter and the gang for a night on the town once. Maybe in that particular time of amnesia he subconsciously reacted by being nicer as Norman?

 

[Nightwing]

Awesome awesomeness, and the discussion is as awesome as the episode was.

I still think a lot of the Green Goblin dialogue is a bit too Joker. The deja vu thing just felt like more of that. He is The Joker to Spider-man's Batman, but he's also a different person/villain. Everything the show tries to do fits together so well, though. Also, others have said things feel like they move pretty fast, and I've noticed that too. Plus, after a new episode I just want another one right away. Think what will happen to me when the season ends! The SEASON!

Every pixel of Tombstone has also been awesome, so I won't repeat that, but I'll agree with those who loved his action in this episode. The pumpkin knives in his back as he ran was indeed unexpected and therefore awesome. I think it also gives a little insight as to what kind of power this guy has to those who don't already know.

How bout that Mary Jane cutie pie? I think she's showing that she likes and admires Peter. And within that is ALSO the speculation that she might know he's wears that Spider-themed one-sie more than just on Halloween. The writing is so well, it doesn't even matter what the true story is. The speculation is tons of fun by itself! MJ, Harry and Norman, The Big Man. That's also why I'm trying to keep quiet about what I know (plus because there's stuff about the comics I don't know) because it's possible I can lead myself to the wrong place. I figured Harry was a set up from the beginning, but to what extent and the specifics as to how and why are yet to be uncovered. Fun stuff!!

I think a psychic evaluation might give us more information about what's going on with Harry. According to Norman's story (a man in comics whom I have NEVER trusted in my LIFE), he has a Harvey Dent case of Multiple Personality. He was too weak/scared to deal with something, so his unconscious created someone who could. "Leave of Absence" huh? Norman will probably just put him in a box somewhere for safe keeping.

I just noticed something: in the comics, there was Ned Leeds, a Daily Bugle staffer who would go on to become a Hobgoblin fall-guy. On today's rerun, Catalysts, and this new episode, we have Daily Bugle staffer Ned Lee. And he looks...Asian, which I guess accounts for the "Lee." Apparently the writers want to add a little ethnic variety to the ensemble (Ned Leeds was white).

That was discussed in an article before the show started. The creators figured that these days you see more diversity, so it would be more realistic. It's just kind of annoying to me for the simple fact that I've been calling him Ned Leeds for a zillion years and I may call him that by accident and confuse non-comic people, so then I have to appologize. An article from July can be found here.

Watching these GG eps have really given me a new respect for the Goblin.

When I started reading Spidey comics, Venom was the arch-nemesis. I understand the Goblin's place in Spidey lore but he never was a major player in the era I read.

In this series, I walk way w/ the comparison that Green Goblin is like a hybrid Batman-Joker villain.

That's right! Kudos to the creative team, then, for re-illuminating the long long ago days of Spider-man comics and characters for today's audiences and generations.

Halloween costumes were....what's the exact opposite of a let down? They were a blank. I dunno, I can't think of a word that fits the way I want. The point is we've been waiting for it and it ruled. The dorky idea (in the viewers' eyes only, of course) of Peter going as Spider-man is classic, and reminded me of the Amazing Friends days. Bobby was Captain America. Fifty cheers for Bobby's costume choice!

I caught the Black Cat thing too, probably because at this point I've just been waiting for her. And since it was Halloween, my subconscious was probably looking for her. I miss her and I can't wait for her to be in the show to stir up some of her fun and excitement.

One thing I miss from SpidermanTAS is something that a few opinions have complained about, which is all of Peter's talking and inner monologues. When Spider-man said Harry was his best friend, it felt like and looked like he said that to Norman. lol.

 

[Dogbert]

How is it a far stretch?

Harry doesn't remember being the goblin. He just knows he's been blacking out, and when he's blacked out he doesn't remember what he was doing. He's not admitting to being the Goblin, he's admitting that he doesn't know.

First of all, I didn't say it would be a far stretch for Norman to be the Goblin. What I said was that it would be a far stretch for Norman to have been the Goblin, then manage to get Harry to be the Goblin in the final fight. It's pretty clear Harry was the one in the costume during the fight. If he wasn't, you'd have to explain a) Harry happening to be home when he was suppose to be at the Halloween thing, b) Norman's perfectly fine leg, and c) Harry's hurt leg. All evidence points to Harry being the Goblin for at least the final fight. Going backwards from that, it would be hard to explain Norman having been the Goblin previously and somehow passing the Goblin identity on to Harry. Short of arguing the Green Goblin is some kind of spirit that can move from person to person and retain his memories in the process, I don't see an explanation for multiple Goblin identities at this point in the series.

Another point I've seen about the Norman/Harry debate is regarding the Goblin's motives and actions. GregX, for example, said that "If Harry were the Green Goblin, he would have attacked the Fall Formal instead of going after Tombstone." Why? The Green Goblin, from my interpretations in prior uses in other series and the comics, is a different personality completely separate from that of the associated Osborn. If Goblin wants to take over the crime business, he'll go after Tombstone whether he has a personal interest in killing him off or not.

Also, I've seen posts arguing that Norman's perfect father act at the end is further proof the incident was staged. All I saw was Norman manipulating Spidey into not revealing the Goblin's identity. He knew Spidey wouldn't let him take the rap, and that Spidey wouldn't say no to an offer to rehabilitate poor Harry. Whether you view the situation as Harry being the Goblin or as Norman setting it up, the manipulation makes sense. We can all agree Norman isn't a very nice guy, and getting Spidey to back off helps regardless of whether he's doing it to further a trick about the Goblin's identity OR to keep the press from finding out his son's the Goblin.

As for the Norman meets Goblin scene... Using the Chameleon would be a great idea. It's just too bad Spidey didn't notice. If Norman had the Chameleon on call, wouldn't he have used him at the end instead of sticking it on Harry? Why give Spidey a certain connection to the Osborn family when he could just disprove his theory and leave Spidey guessing? Plus, preemptively using a villain we haven't even met yet - that's making things confusing on a Lost level and no one wants that...

I'm not saying there's no chance that Norman is the Goblin, just that a lot of the arguments I've seen trying to explain it have holes or make assumptions...

 

[GregX]

I didn't say that he had the Chameleon on call. Quite the opposite.

Norman who surprised the security guard by going in through the front door to download files was most likely the Chameleon performing a case of industrial espionage.

And once again, in the comics, the Green Goblin is not and has never been a split personality.

 

[Crash]

That fight at the foundary. Wow. Harry--yes, I'm still saying Harry--clearly understands the concept of 'preparing the battlespace.' The controls, bombs waiting in skylights.... Awesome. But a little disapointed at how quickly the whole thing unravelled at the end. Ah well, the Goblin will be back. As Harry, or a Norman.

The space shuttle thing also seemed to go by a little fast. Still, worth it for the great character-moments it brought out in JJJ. Him waiting to see if his son lived or died... Again, awesome....

 

[GregX]

That fight at the foundary. Wow. Harry--yes, I'm still saying Harry--clearly understands the concept of 'preparing the battlespace.'

Harry is a moron.

 

[lukecage]

i wonder will pete be able to take the black suit on and off at will like in the movie. i hope not.

 

[theRedDeath]

Am I the only one who felt that Hammerhead and Tombstone suspected Osborn might be the GG as well? In the last episode Hammerhead was grilling Norman about stuff when Norman conveniently blamed it all on the Green Goblin.

I'm saying that it was Norman walking through the front door to his office, so as to stage an alibi for himself to convince Hammerhead and Tombstone that he wasn't the Goblin. Not to mention any number of other people who might suspect him down the road, police or otherwise.

Another interesting thing I'd like to point out: When Harry was unmasked and on the couch in the Goblin uniform, when he was switching back and forth between acting normal and acting crazy, AT NO POINT did he revert to using the Green Goblin voice. Even when he was in "Goblin Mode" you could say, he was still sounding like Harry.

That's another sign that it's probably not really him.

---

 

[Captain Highwind]

Maybe the mask gives him [strike]Blum[/strike] voice alteration.

 

[theRedDeath]

Maybe the mask gives him [strike]Blum[/strike] voice alteration.

That's certainly possible, but i'm willing to bet it's not caused by the mask, and that Harry was set up.

---