"Stargirl" Season Three Talkback (Spoilers)

[Yojimbo]

August 31, 2022
"Frenemies - Chapter One: The Murder" - Episode 27
With Starman back from the dead and her former super-villain enemies vowing to reform, Courtney is hopeful that there will finally be peace in Blue Valley. But when The Gambler arrives to town looking to make his own amends, the team find themselves at odds over whether he can be trusted.

Related Threads
-News & Discussion Part 2
-Season 1 Talkback
-Season 2 Talkback

 

[reflection01]

I completely forgot it was coming back today. Fantastic!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Fone Bone]

Stargirl "Frenemies: Chapter One: The Murder"

Early thoughts of the season:

I predict this season is going to be a return to form for the series. I enjoyed season 1, and was mostly annoyed by season 2. This specific premise and that specific teaser says this is probably going to be this show finding its groove.

The season is going to be utterly predictable. Make no mistake: I think that's a good thing. It's a kiddie superhero show. It shouldn't traffic in shocking deaths and tragedy. It's not Breaking Bad. The Flash could learn from this. The Gambler is the least important person in the episode (despite the episode being about him) so I knew he was the one getting murdiddlyurdlered. Whodunnit? Here is where the season being predictable comes in handy. The killer is almost certainly one of the heroes, which will drive up the tension between the good guys and the former baddies if they are being blamed for something they didn't do. Who is the culprit?

I could be wrong, but I am 90% certain it's Sylvester. Because of the heroes present, he is the least important, i.e. he's had a major role on the show for the least amount of time. So if the show is gonna embrace the predictability, it's him.

Will there be mitigating factors? The fact that the character has already described losing time in this very episode suggests that may very well be the case.

But I knew from the teaser Gambler was getting murdered, and I loved watching the episode unfold exactly the way it should have. There's something comforting about that. But as someone who has seen more TV than average people, you want to take my advice for the likeliest culprit? It will be Sylvester. 90% certain of it.

Dark horse is the daughter Becky. But that only happens if the show sucks. I don't think it does.

That was great. *****.

 

[Frontier]

They pretty much give away who the murder victim is by the narrator's identity, but I guess that's kind of what you do? Are we going to hear the Gambler's voice all season?

Some peak Americana Blue Valley, right there!

I love Jakeem's reaction to throwing the paper to Shade, and how the Lightning Bolt (now voiced by Seth Green" is all "GTFO!!!!"

Beth's parents have now become season 1 Beth. And they actually designed a comic-accurate version of her original suit. Will they make a physical suit just to sell the joke?

I love how the Crocks have an early morning family exercise routine. And Tigress is a Tiger Mom (poor Barbara).

Sylvesters' a surprisingly great houseguest, but is he still rich? I think he came from a well-off family.

Does the Cosmic Staff make you quasi-immortal now? Like, Sylvester was buried for years, and suddenly Courtney activates the staff and he's alive? Was he in some kind of stasis instead? Do we have to test it by near-killing Courtney?

I understand Courtney's desire to be trusting and willing to believe in second chances...but I think most people would want to lock their door around the people he knew helped kill all his old friends. I also feel like Courtney's insistence on trust and compromise is going to end up biting her this season.

They finally bring in Becky Sharpe/Hazard! I was wondering if they'd ever reference her. I have to imagine Gambler looking into her was plot relevant and tied to what got him killed, so perhaps she's one of the kids Bones and his people have taken in like they did Todd/Obsidian? It seems like they're the ones monitoring everybody.

Courtney's one weakness...deadbeat dads trying to be there for their daughters!

I don't think enough credit has gone to the long-running subplot of Sportsmaster trying to get Pat fit. Also I guess he's back to running his gym like nothing ever happened.

So Shade's powers are wonky? And no love/loss between him and the Gambler since Gambler drained his funds as one last screw you when Shade bailed on the ISA. No honor among thieves, as they say.

I feel like Jade or Jakeem should have JSA membership, being actual JSA legacies, before Cindy or Artemis do. I can't fault Artemis' enthusiasm though (and, really, the team was kind of overpowered for those thugs). Also is Artemis wearing more green now like her hero self in YJ?

Just Sylvester and Pat going on a bro's trip with Cosmo. Even Cosmo felt a little guilty about it though. I was surprised we actually got some STRIPE screentime in the first episode, marginal as it was. Also Pat is now back to being a sidekick to two different Star-people. Perennial sidekick, that Stripesy!

I appreciated Sylvester mentioned his sister (Mary) dying, since we know Brainwave killed her in season 1. He also had a nephew he never knew about, which kind of sucks. I think he would have ultimately liked Henry.

Stargirl and Starman sharing the Cosmic Staff? I'm not sure how well that will work out in practice.

I love how Rick is all "we don't drink on the job" and Beth is the only one who brings up they're underage.

Was that not Grundy's roar at the end there?

 

[Yojimbo]

Yeah, pretty likely the Helix Institute was the one that set up all the surveillance cameras. And Becky being one of their patients also immediately came to my mind, too.

I'm sure they'll go through all the former ISA members as suspects next week and make little headway. But yeah, I think it's Sylvester, too, or whoever he is. A small part of me is still skeptical it might not really be him.

I'd bet Shade's current powers being glitchy has something to do with Todd Rice.

 

[Fone Bone]

Yeah, pretty likely the Helix Institute was the one that set up all the surveillance cameras. And Becky being one of their patients also immediately came to my mind, too.

I'm sure they'll go through all the former ISA members as suspects next week and make little headway. But yeah, I think it's Sylvester, too, or whoever he is. A small part of me is still skeptical it might not really be him.

I'd bet Shade's current powers being glitchy has something to do with Todd Rice.

I hope it IS Sylvester. Because if it's him and he's guilty, it's interesting. If he's an imposter and he's guilty, it's automatically not.

 

[Yojimbo]

I hope it IS Sylvester. Because if it's him and he's guilty, it's interesting. If he's an imposter and he's guilty, it's automatically not.

Agreed, but it's CW. It will totally be the ghost of some other character stuck to him that takes over his body more and more.

 

[Otaku-sempai]

Does the Cosmic Staff make you quasi-immortal now? Like, Sylvester was buried for years, and suddenly Courtney activates the staff and he's alive? Was he in some kind of stasis instead? Do we have to test it by near-killing Courtney?

When Sylvester died was his corpse embalmed? I'm not sure that I want to know.

 

[Frontier]

Yeah, pretty likely the Helix Institute was the one that set up all the surveillance cameras. And Becky being one of their patients also immediately came to my mind, too.

I'm sure they'll go through all the former ISA members as suspects next week and make little headway. But yeah, I think it's Sylvester, too, or whoever he is. A small part of me is still skeptical it might not really be him.

I'd bet Shade's current powers being glitchy has something to do with Todd Rice.

It does seem too convenient that Sylvester would revive the way he did. Especially because he would have, logically, decomposed a lot by then.

 

[Yojimbo]

It does seem too convenient that Sylvester would revive the way he did. Especially because he would have, logically, decomposed a lot by then.

But then how could even the Cosmic Staff be fooled? Maybe something else escaped the shadowlands last season and possessed his body?

 

[Frontier]

But then how could even the Cosmic Staff be fooled? Maybe something else escaped the shadowlands last season and possessed his body?

I think if Sylvester isn't completely on the up and up, he isn't aware of it himself and he's biologically himself.

 

[Road to Gotham]

Love The Gambler this episode. 'A-'
Erin Goins seem to be having the time of life.
Amusing that all his former team mates dislike him.
Very tension fill scene in the diner between him and Shade.
Appreciate the call back to season 1. The Crocks scold Gambler for littering but in the opening
montage Gambler picks up a piece of trash and throws it into a bin.
Gambler looking for his daughter Rebecca Sharp.
She appeared in Season 4 of Flash. I doubt they would use the actress if Hazard appears.
Rest In Peace Gambler.

Neat seeing NATHANIEL DUSK on the movie Marquee.

 

[Yojimbo]

September 7, 2022
"Frenemies - Chapter Two: The Suspects" - Episode 28
Blue Valley, the JSA begin looking at potential suspects. A tense run-in with The Shade makes Courtney and Pat realize that Sylvester’s old ways could land them in hot water. Finally, Barbara steps in to help Paula, whose attempt at fitting in has not gone so well.

 

[Fone Bone]

Stargirl "Frenemies: Chapter Two: The Suspects"

There were a lot of interesting individual elements that I will discuss in the second half of the review. But I kind of need to talk about what made me unhappy first.

Last week I said I enjoy a predictable story being told the way it should be told. I scoff at people who decry predictability and demand shocks that make little sense instead. I argue a story going down the way it should is better than a story going down the way you didn't expect, even if it's worse for it. By far.

My problem with this episode might prove groundless. I'm operating under the (fair) assumption that Sylvester is the murderer. I say this not just because his behavior is erratic. But the killer being a hero and the villains being unjustly blamed for it fits into the theme of the series exploring redemption and the heroes having to question their negative assumptions about their former foes. If I am wrong, and Sylvester didn't do it, my entire complaint for the first half of this review doesn't matter. But as far as predictable stories being told the way they should be told go, the mystery is being told wrong here. Because for genre vets like me, Sylvester IS the first suspect, and probably the only real one worth looking at. And a mystery should know that about its audience. It needed to raise the question itself in this episode. Sylvester could have offered an amazing alibi that looks iron-clad right now, but we'd realize after it's revealed it was him that it was bogus. A villain needed to ask him where HE was that night. And the fact that none of them did is a failing. By not putting Sylvester on the board as a possible suspect at all, it almost seems like if and when the series does the reveal, they'll expect the viewer to be shocked by it and feel betrayed by it. That's telling the story wrong, if not by the characters, than by the viewer. That's this show assuming we're dumber than we are, and will actually be surprised by the most obvious suspect. Sylvester is the best suspect because he fits the theme of the season. You want to argue that that doesn't actually matter in a true mystery, I'll ask you the last time a hacky Berlanti show didn't tie the moral or resolution to an unrelated personal problem of the heroes, and you'll realize them doing that here would only be about a tenth as bad as the crap The Flash and Supergirl asked us to swallow on a weekly basis.

But if the show DOES want to tie the mystery resolution to the theme of the show, it has to be a fair mystery. Otherwise the predictable story is being told wrong. And there is no more wrong way to tell a predictable story than by believing the audience will not be able to predict it. That's storytelling 101, don't you think?

Let's talk about random things in the episode.

I thought it was cool that it was revealed after Mike and his friend left the bathroom that the sign DID say "Boys" after all. Talk about hitting the correct theme.

The Shade saying Pat was the only one at Sylvester's funeral says a lot.

Either both Sylvester and Shade are misinformed about Jay Garrick's death, or this episode is suggesting that last year wasn't an actual canon Arrowverse crossover, and John Wesley Shipp played a different version on this Earth. That would be SUCH a disappointment to me, but the truth is I think Jay's journey to being The Man In The Iron Mask on The Flash was not previously written in stone, so if the Shade sent him elsewhere while he and Starman believed he killed him, that would work. On the other hand, Superman & Lois is saying the Berlanti shows are moving past the integrity of The Arrowverse, which I think is a mistake. As many shows as there are, I didn't find the continuity all too confusing, until Superman & Lois outright said it was a different Earth. I could perfectly rationalize that show for every episode before they decided that. As it stands, it's hard to figure, and this stuff is confusing the issue.

Paula is only asking what difference it makes in making the German Chocolate cake and buying one from the store because she is rational and right. The idea that Barb needs to teach her a lesson about caring about something is ridiculous. It's a freaking cake.

I have reservations. I don't like Sylvester being hidden in the shadows as a surprise betrayal and twist. Because if it IS him, he actually isn't. ***1/2.

 

[Frontier]

Did you want to see the Gambler dancing to the background music? Well, there you go!

I understand Courtney's commitment to this, but at least Pat and Sylvester probably have more experience solving crimes than she or the rest of the new JSA do. Although now Courtney's emotionally invested in the case because of Becky.

The Junior JSA are on the case! I love Jakeem's innocence. Complaining about "toxic masculinity" without actually knowing what that means. Also the Thunderbolt is surprisingly cultured.

Poor Barbara has to deal with a cartoonishly jerky co-worker and having to teach Paula how to actually be domestic.

I'm glad the Shade taught Maria how to brew the perfect tea. Did he know the actual Earl Grey?

Sylvester is still treating Pat like his sidekick and like it's the old days when he was a kid just having Pat tag along with him, but I'm glad he got the picture that things aren't the same as they were back in the day.
The perks of having a Superhero uncle is getting to play hooky and learn new super moves.

Cameron is now going through his troubled artist phase after his grandparents have told him (at least from their perspective) what happened to his dad and he's probably feeling his powers coming in. I'm glad Paul is back and teaching classes though.

I feel like Yolanda and Cindy are going to really come to blows at some point.

"The Killer Has Many Names." Well that's not very helpful when pretty much everybody in this show has more than one name, but I guess that means the killer goes beyond the civilian/Superhero name convention.

Shade killed Jay Garrick and Wesley Dodd/Sandman? The former surprises me the most because he had a practical man-crush on The Flash in the comics. Although if you believe the theory that Earth-Prime Jay is actually Post-Crisis Earth-2 Jay...

Poor Sylvester. He was so caught up in being Starman that he never formed any connections or relationships outside the JSA, his parents never cared about him, and his sister died before he did. So Pat was the only one at his funeral. And on top of that he blames himself for the end of the JSA because he killed Bruce Gordon.

Is Shade going to completely bow out of the plot to resolve...whatever seems to be going on with his powers? I'm still waiting for them to bring Jade back.

Wow, Shade was...spectacularly unhelpful in that scene with Rick and Beth. Like, Rick asks him if he has any idea what to do with Grundy and Shade immediately bows out without saying anything. At least he had the decency to show up, explain he was leaving, and apologize for not actually helping much. But Rick also has to deal with his powers being wonky on top of that.

So Cindy did have the laptop and is experimenting on herself, and the Crocks are definitely hiding something...but this early into it probably means they're not the killers.

 

[Yojimbo]

"The Killer Has Many Names." The first thought that came to mind when Thunderbolt wrote that was, the killer is Ultra-Humanite and he pulled a Return of the Joker on Sylvester. Like at some point before the pivotal battle between the ISA and JSA at the mansion, Syl was held prisoner by Humanite and experimented on but Syl didn't know the full extent. So after Sylvester died and was buried, Humanite, however, he did it, microchip, biological, magic etc. activated and went to work repairing his body and the Courtney using the staff was the final trigger needed to jump start the body. And the blackouts Sylvester is going through are when Humanite takes over his body and will do it increasingly until he takes full control. And while in this state has access to his powers.

BUT then I realized, oh yeah, they never even name dropped Humanite on the show yet. That would really be a middle finger to the fans if the culprit is a new character that was not even set up previously to exist on the show. Summer School: Chapter 10 did reference Deathbolt who was a lackey of Humanite in the comics, but that's about it.

Dragon King maybe? He had been alive since 1900 or something and was known for shady experiments, cheating death, experimenting on Shining Knight, etc.

 

[Otaku-sempai]

"The Killer Has Many Names." The first thought that came to mind when Thunderbolt wrote that was, the killer is Ultra-Humanite and he pulled a Return of the Joker on Sylvester. Like at some point before the pivotal battle between the ISA and JSA at the mansion, Syl was held prisoner by Humanite and experimented on but Syl didn't know the full extent. So after Sylvester died and was buried, Humanite, however, he did it, microchip, biological, magic etc. activated and went to work repairing his body and the Courtney using the staff was the final trigger needed to jump start the body. And the blackouts Sylvester is going through are when Humanite takes over his body and will do it increasingly until he takes full control. And while in this state has access to his powers.

BUT then I realized, oh yeah, they never even name dropped Humanite on the show yet. That would really be a middle finger to the fans if the culprit is a new character that was not even set up previously to exist on the show. Summer School: Chapter 10 did reference Deathbolt who was a lackey of Humanite in the comics, but that's about it.

Dragon King maybe? He had been alive since 1900 or something and was known for shady experiments, cheating death, experimenting on Shining Knight, etc.

That clue to me suggests someone like Vandal Savage or The Shade.

 

[Yojimbo]

That clue to me suggests someone like Vandal Savage or The Shade.

True, both have assumed many names over their long life. I thought Humanite too because he jumps from body to body and steals people's lives.

 

[Frontier]

"The Killer Has Many Names." The first thought that came to mind when Thunderbolt wrote that was, the killer is Ultra-Humanite and he pulled a Return of the Joker on Sylvester. Like at some point before the pivotal battle between the ISA and JSA at the mansion, Syl was held prisoner by Humanite and experimented on but Syl didn't know the full extent. So after Sylvester died and was buried, Humanite, however, he did it, microchip, biological, magic etc. activated and went to work repairing his body and the Courtney using the staff was the final trigger needed to jump start the body. And the blackouts Sylvester is going through are when Humanite takes over his body and will do it increasingly until he takes full control. And while in this state has access to his powers.

BUT then I realized, oh yeah, they never even name dropped Humanite on the show yet. That would really be a middle finger to the fans if the culprit is a new character that was not even set up previously to exist on the show. Summer School: Chapter 10 did reference Deathbolt who was a lackey of Humanite in the comics, but that's about it.

Dragon King maybe? He had been alive since 1900 or something and was known for shady experiments, cheating death, experimenting on Shining Knight, etc.

I thought it might be Sylvester because he's had so many codenames, although I forget if they established he used "Skyman."

Ultra-Humanite in his gorilla form would explain all the damage to the trailer and the loud roar we heard.

 

[hobbyfan]

Love The Gambler this episode. 'A-'
Erin Goins seem to be having the time of life.
Amusing that all his former team mates dislike him.
Very tension fill scene in the diner between him and Shade.
Appreciate the call back to season 1. The Crocks scold Gambler for littering but in the opening
montage Gambler picks up a piece of trash and throws it into a bin.
Gambler looking for his daughter Rebecca Sharp.
She appeared in Season 4 of Flash. I doubt they would use the actress if Hazard appears.
Rest In Peace Gambler.

Neat seeing NATHANIEL DUSK on the movie Marquee.

View attachment 300010

What he said about the Easter egg.

Diverse soundtrack, with Neil Diamond and C & C Music Factory. They're begging to get a soundtrack album released.

It only looks like Cindy has the smoking gun.

I'm reminded of some lyrics from Kenny Rogers' 1978 song, "The Gambler":

"Every gambler knows,
The secret to surviving
Is knowing what to throw away
And knowing what to keep"

Gambler wanted to reconnect with his daughter, but is killed before he can. Hmmmmmm.

On to week 2:

Cindy is continuing her dad's experiments, it seems, and has Gambler's laptop. Not good.

Someone suggested Ultra-Humanite. Uh, no. Someone on another board said it might be Nekron. Not so sure about that, either. Gambler's gun may have had a rigging that would have it go off if someone other than Gambler had possession of it. So many red herrings.