Why Black Super Heroes Succeed- and Fail

[GL2k2]

I don't understand this comment. Elaborate, please.

And as far as turning Nick Fury black. He wasn't turned black but has always been black in the Ultimate Universe. This is a rebooted universe so he is black. He is still white in the 616 Marvel Universe. But in the end, I don't think it should matter...

Rebooted. Yeah, whatever.

Anyway, my comment was basically unfair. Just because people don't seek out Black sci-fi doesn't mean it's racist. But I do think racism has something to do with it, whether one knows they are or not. The film "Brother From Another Planet" on the outisde looks like a blaxploitation movie and I can understand why it is not the cult classic it should be. But it is a great film and I know many sci-fi fans who can not give it enough accolades in the world.
And the fact that it was created by a great white director, makes you wonder why it isn't more of cult classic status. But I suspect someday it will be, the Simpsons has already made reference to it "The Brother From Another Series", so it can't be too far behind.

 

[Nick K.]

Rebooted. Yeah, whatever.

Anyway, my comment was basically unfair. Just because people don't seek out Black sci-fi doesn't mean it's racist. But I do think racism has something to do with it, whether one knows they are or not. The film "Brother From Another Planet" on the outisde looks like a blaxploitation movie and I can understand why it is not the cult classic it should be. But it is a great film and I know many sci-fi fans who can not give it enough accolades in the world.
And the fact that it was created by a great white director, makes you wonder why it isn't more of cult classic status. But I suspect someday it will be, the Simpsons has already made reference to it "The Brother From Another Series", so it can't be too far behind.

Yes, it was unfair.

 

[staticblue]

The point he is trying to make is the fact that people have always had a problem with certain characters being changed black be it in movies,television, or comics. Kingpin may be the only example in movies, but you have other characters such as Captain America and Greeen Lantern that have been met with vicious critism about the color of their skin. It's a factor that I think contributes to the failure of black hero fanbases, as it would turn away fans of this reinvented character, as well as the character that was originally reinvented. It's definently ok to reinvent a franchise as long as you do it justice.There's no disrespcet in it at all since it would be no different from an artist that remakes a classic song from a past artist.

yeah, thats what I meant slade. but everyone here is making some pretty good points. someone here made mention to the face that we shouldnt care about other minorities, but i feel thats wrong. If we take no disregard to asians, or hispanics, we would just as racist as that one white person who made a racist black hero

 

[Chris Wood]

The failure is black audiences laugh at black sci-fi because it usually isn't from the vision of a black standpoint. Most the black characters we have were created by whites. When black people in the industry get serious about making sci-fi then we'll see a turn out.

I strongly disagree that one has to be from the same demographic as one's characters in order to portray them accurately. If that were true then the following movies must be crap:

Schindler's List - directed by American about Poles/Germans
The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly - directed by Italian about Americans
Lawrence of Arabia - directed by Brit about Arabs
Ben Hur - directed by Frenchman about Jews and Romans
Gladiator - directed by Brit about Romans
21 Grams - directed by Mexican about Americans
Gandhi - directed by Brit about Indians


However, I think most people will agree that these are pretty good, not to mention popular, movies. It is necessary to understand one's subject very well, but I don't think it is necessary to be one's subject.

 

[Redi]

I strongly disagree that one has to be from the same demographic as one's characters in order to portray them accurately. If that were true then the following movies must be crap:

Schindler's List - directed by American about Poles/Germans
The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly - directed by Italian about Americans
Lawrence of Arabia - directed by Brit about Arabs
Ben Hur - directed by Frenchman about Jews and Romans
Gladiator - directed by Brit about Romans
21 Grams - directed by Mexican about Americans
Gandhi - directed by Brit about Indians


However, I think most people will agree that these are pretty good, not to mention popular, movies. It is necessary to understand one's subject very well, but I don't think it is necessary to be one's subject.

Uh no. I'm pretty sure I know more about what its like being than you do. So if we had equal directing talents, script writers, and actors...both made a film depicting black people...my film would be better. I more than understand the subject matter I am the subject matter.

A historical drama and a movie about a culture's slice of life are totally different. Anyone can do the research on Gandhi or gladiatoral combat...however, if the film maker wasn't an Indian who knew Gandi or a gladiator the film will never truely capture the first hand experience.

 

[JohnCrichton]

Reason why black superheroes fail is because they concentrate on making them "the black superhero" instead of a person and a superhero.

Reason why Spider-Man works so well is because anyone can relate to his problems and his creators didn't focus on making him "the white Spider-Man".

It's about characters and not making them stereotypical black characters. I haven't read it, but this Blokhedz premise just sounds awful. His power is rapping at people????? Now, maybe the writer's a frelling genius that he's able to make this work and not make it ridiculous and embrassing... so I can't judge the comic, but the premise pisses me off.

The best superhero franchise to get heroes of different ethnicities consistantely right has been the Power Rangers. Never have I been so proud of so many black superheroes who were just their characters and not trying so hard to be "the black character." Asians, Latinos, and White Folk all got level ground to bring their characters across and they do it every year! If not for the stigma of the show, I think America should celebrate it far more than they do for the positive and action packed role models the show brings across.

Bottom line... you want cool ethnic superheroes.... stop making them be ethnic first. Blade is a badass. He's not, "The Black" Blade. He is his character and owns that character and is black.

I've been embarassed and irritiated my whole life on how either black people get the moronic roles, get killed first, or just never get to just be a friggin' person but instead are put in roles where they have to be "the black guy".

Yeah, this article provided is pretty limited in seeing what the problem is. No, Spider-Man would not have succeeded if they focused on him and his struggles in being black and constantly being angry and being "oh poor me, I'm black." Spider-Man's just a guy and that's what's cool about him. We're not dealing with his "white problems" we're dealing with problems that ALL of us can relate to, like relationships, responsiblities, and being let down.

Entertainment-wise, the world's a much better place for black people. Benjiman Sisko I'm told was awesome in Deep Space Nine and it wasn't cuz he was "the black" Captain, but because he was a damned good one.

T.J. was a pretty good leader in Power Rangers Turbo (too bad the series kinda sucked) and Joel the Sky Cowboy was the only good thing about Power Rangers Lightspeed Rescue and never did either of those two adhere to some stereotype, but instead blasted their charisma into the characters for people to enjoy.
As of seeing the Kingpin turned black, and Nick Fury I noticed how much color doesn't matter as long as the character is right. I totally bought MC Dunkin as the Kingpin and it worked just fine for me. Same with The Ultimate's Nick Fury. They were good characters that did the part well and they weren't changed for any shock value. I think a good reason was to diversifiy the ethnicity of the cast, but the thing is they didn't make Kingpin or Nick Fury in to "the black" versions of themselves, but versions of themselves that were black. So, I have no problem with Catwoman being black... what I have a problem with is this Catwoman being completely and utterly different from the one of legend for seemingly no reason or philosphy than, "Hey... we should put Halle Barry into a cat costume!" "Oo! You're a genius!"

That's how I feel about ethic superheroes. The world needs more, but stop making them "the ethnic" superhero.

 

[Chris Wood]

Uh no. I'm pretty sure I know more about what its like being than you do. So if we had equal directing talents, script writers, and actors...both made a film depicting black people...my film would be better. I more than understand the subject matter I am the subject matter.

A historical drama and a movie about a culture's slice of life are totally different. Anyone can do the research on Gandhi or gladiatoral combat...however, if the film maker wasn't an Indian who knew Gandi or a gladiator the film will never truely capture the first hand experience.

It seems to me that the world of film would be a very insular place if everyone agreed with you. If white American directors and black American directors could only tell stories about about white American and black Americans respectively, we'd be missing out on a lot of great stories about other cultures and countries. No more Troy, no more Last Samurai, etc....

If I follow your logic then Antoine Fuqua is not competent to direct a movie about King Arthur and Tim Story is not competent to direct a movie about the Fantastic Four.

Again, I must disagree. That sounds rather discriminatory to me. I think that anyone can tell anyone's story with enough effort and understanding. One's imagination need not be a prisoner of one's background.

 

[GL2k2]

It seems to me that the world of film would be a very insular place if everyone agreed with you. If white American directors and black American directors could only tell stories about about white American and black Americans respectively, we'd be missing out on a lot of great stories about other cultures and countries. No more Troy, no more Last Samurai, etc....

If I follow your logic then Antoine Fuqua is not competent to direct a movie about King Arthur and Tim Story is not competent to direct a movie about the Fantastic Four.

Again, I must disagree. That sounds rather discriminatory to me. I think that anyone can tell anyone's story with enough effort and understanding. One's imagination need not be a prisoner of one's background.

You're right, those directors are not competent, because it's a job to them. They really are just doing it for money. If these same films were given to someone like Mel Gibson, you'd see a difference, simply because they probably wouldn't do them because they don't care. These directors are studio directors, they take what is given to them. They can't argue about what they want. Which is, in my opinion a terrible thing. It's a like a singer who must sing bad songs. But other guys like Tarantino or the old school Scorcese are the writer/directors or to use my analogy singer/songwriters, and you get more of a feel of where that person is coming from.

The fact that writer/directors is a very hard medium to suceed in unless you have an overall vision, it's understandable why there aren't a lot of minority directors in the first place. If there are black directors in there, they're probably just in there to make money and to tell the same songs in my opinion. Personally, I'm tired of seeing that, one of my heroes is Ernest Dickerson because he took the unbeaten path of horror films, and made some pretty damn good ones. But he also struggled as a cinematographer for many years mostly under Spike Lee.

 

[JLApe]

Schindler's List - directed by American about Poles/Germans
The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly - directed by Italian about Americans
Lawrence of Arabia - directed by Brit about Arabs
Ben Hur - directed by Frenchman about Jews and Romans
Gladiator - directed by Brit about Romans
21 Grams - directed by Mexican about Americans
Gandhi - directed by Brit about Indians

For the record, the Frenchman director of Ben-Hur and the American director of Schindler's List are both Jewish.

 

[Redi]

It seems to me that the world of film would be a very insular place if everyone agreed with you. If white American directors and black American directors could only tell stories about about white American and black Americans respectively, we'd be missing out on a lot of great stories about other cultures and countries. No more Troy, no more Last Samurai, etc....

If I follow your logic then Antoine Fuqua is not competent to direct a movie about King Arthur and Tim Story is not competent to direct a movie about the Fantastic Four.

Again, I must disagree. That sounds rather discriminatory to me. I think that anyone can tell anyone's story with enough effort and understanding. One's imagination need not be a prisoner of one's background.

uh no...again.

I said my film would be better if all other things were equal. I didn't say you wouldn't be competent nor did I say your film would suck. I would have more insight than you would when making a movie. We could apply that to anything. If a samurai from the shogun era was magically transported to now and decided to make a movie about what it was like to be a samurai...I'm pretty sure he would do a better job than Tom Cruise.

Its that simple. I could research a asian american family for years...make a film...but I'm sure I would miss things that an asian american wouldn't when telling the story of an asian american family.

 

[Mynd Hed]

On the other hand, I think it's possible to miss important insights into one's own situation, either because one is too emotionally invested to be objective, or because there are certain things one takes for granted if they've never experienced life without them. For example, if I wrote a movie about the "white experience" in America, I'd probably focus on things like the constant white-male-bashing in the media, the unresolvable sense of guilt white folks tend to feel for things their ancestors did, the way it seems impossible to be proud of one's white heritage without being branded a racist, etc., because those are the things I think of when I think about "what it means to be white."
Whereas if a non-white person wrote a movie about the same topic, they might be more likely to focus on other aspects that I might take for granted, such as the unconscious effects of going through life dealing mostly with people who, racially speaking, look more or less like oneself. And in that way, a non-white person might actually make a better movie than I myself would.
That's why I think it's important to get many different people's perspectives on these sorts of issues. Whether a person belongs to the ethnicity he or she is writing about certainly has an effect on the writing, but that effect is not necessarily a negative one 100% of the time.

 

[GL2k2]

On the other hand, I think it's possible to miss important insights into one's own situation, either because one is too emotionally invested to be objective, or because there are certain things one takes for granted if they've never experienced life without them. For example, if I wrote a movie about the "white experience" in America, I'd probably focus on things like the constant white-male-bashing in the media, the unresolvable sense of guilt white folks tend to feel for things their ancestors did, the way it seems impossible to be proud of one's white heritage without being branded a racist, etc., because those are the things I think of when I think about "what it means to be white."

White-male bashing in media?

Hmmmm, perhaps you can give some examples. I will help you, white-males bashing their own people cause they want them to wake up like on Comedy Central's Daily Show or some stupid comedians doing it all the time because they get laughs for telling the truth. So, help me out a little more. I am not starting an argument, but I really am trying to see this side of the conversation.

 

[MJC]

White-male bashing in media?

Hmmmm, perhaps you can give some examples. I will help you, white-males bashing their own people cause they want them to wake up like on Comedy Central's Daily Show or some stupid comedians doing it all the time because they get laughs for telling the truth. So, help me out a little more. I am not starting an argument, but I really am trying to see this side of the conversation.

I'm pretty curious about this too...I just don't see it. Especially seeing as how white males generally run the media...

 

[Mynd Hed]

White-male bashing in media?

Hmmmm, perhaps you can give some examples. I will help you, white-males bashing their own people cause they want them to wake up like on Comedy Central's Daily Show or some stupid comedians doing it all the time because they get laughs for telling the truth. So, help me out a little more. I am not starting an argument, but I really am trying to see this side of the conversation.

You can see it all the time-- Chapelle's Show is the best example, but look at just about any stand-up comedian, black or white, who deals with race or gender at all in his/her act, and you'll see it. People get away with making flagrant broad generalizations about white people that they could never get away with against any other ethnic group in existence. You're doing it yourself right now, saying white people need to "wake up" as if every white person in America is asleep to the great evils that they, as a race, are committing.
Now, I'm not criticizing the fact that this happens in a comedic context-- white people in my experience tend to take this sort of thing with good humour, and personally I like the fact that my people are so willing to laugh at their own expense.
And I may be more sensitive to this than most owing to the fact that I'm still in college-- it's hard to go a single day here without some feminist giving me the guilt trip for the crime of having a penis or a descendant of the original inhabitants of the area giving me the third degree for the crimes a bunch of white people of a few hundred years ago committed.
Anyway, it doesn't matter whether we agree on this particular point or not-- I was just using it as an example. I think my main point-- that people not part of a particular ethnicity may have valid insights regarding that ethnicity not despite but because of their outsider status-- stands just as well without it.

 

[GL2k2]

You can see it all the time-- Chapelle's Show is the best example, but look at just about any stand-up comedian, black or white, who deals with race or gender at all in his/her act, and you'll see it. People get away with making flagrant broad generalizations about white people that they could never get away with against any other ethnic group in existence. You're doing it yourself right now, saying white people need to "wake up" as if every white person in America is asleep to the great evils that they, as a race, are committing.
Now, I'm not criticizing the fact that this happens in a comedic context-- white people in my experience tend to take this sort of thing with good humour, and personally I like the fact that my people are so willing to laugh at their own expense.
And I may be more sensitive to this than most owing to the fact that I'm still in college-- it's hard to go a single day here without some feminist giving me the guilt trip for the crime of having a penis or a descendant of the original inhabitants of the area giving me the third degree for the crimes a bunch of white people of a few hundred years ago committed.
Anyway, it doesn't matter whether we agree on this particular point or not-- I was just using it as an example. I think my main point-- that people not part of a particular ethnicity may have valid insights regarding that ethnicity not despite but because of their outsider status-- stands just as well without it.

Actually, I wasn't really saying that, but I have heard John Stewart say things like that on the Daily Show. He was saying these things to mostly people who are ignorant about Blacks as if Blacks are now equal to them. Also, I've heard him say something to that affect when he was talking about Bush and politics in general. So with that said, let's move on.

A lot of comedians black and white make fun of ethnicities of all races, and that is their right, if you don't like it or take offense, don't listen to them. Dave Chapelle can say what he wants because it's his show. But 9x out of 10, comedians are telling the truth, they have no reason to lie. If they did, they wouldn't be funny. And I seem to notice whites taking advantage of whites, like Larry the Cable Guy and Jeff Foxworthy. Also, I don't see the Levitra commercials aimed at minorities, and that's something you'll have to take up with the people marketing that.

Also, if you don't live in a major city in the US, I will go on record and make the assumption that you probably aren't open to other ethnicities. You probably don't have a Thai restaurant down the street, you probably haven't seen an Indian (Of the nation India or middle Eastern) in person, and you may or may not even have a real ghetto within 10 miles complete with crackheads, bums (of all races), and hoes (also of all races). That is not to say that trailer parks of somekind often substitute for these in the south, I've been there. Chris Rock said it best, that a white man would not switch with a black man, no matter what. I happen to believe that's true. I can't golf in certain golf clubs because of old boy laws in some southern states, not even Tiger Woods can. I can't pick up and decide to live in Norway if I wanted to. I can't drive in LA without the possibility of being stopped by a cop, I can't drive through Beverly Hills for the same reason. I think I'll stop there. I think you just have a personal self-esteem issue, and it has little to do with the subject matter of this thread.

I suggest we get back on topic.

 

[Nick K.]

Actually, I wasn't really saying that, but I have heard John Stewart say things like that on the Daily Show. He was saying these things to mostly people who are ignorant about Blacks as if Blacks are now equal to them. Also, I've heard him say something to that affect when he was talking about Bush and politics in general. So with that said, let's move on.

A lot of comedians black and white make fun of ethnicities of all races, and that is their right, if you don't like it or take offense, don't listen to them. Dave Chapelle can say what he wants because it's his show. But 9x out of 10, comedians are telling the truth, they have no reason to lie. If they did, they wouldn't be funny. And I seem to notice whites taking advantage of whites, like Larry the Cable Guy and Jeff Foxworthy. Also, I don't see the Levitra commercials aimed at minorities, and that's something you'll have to take up with the people marketing that.

Also, if you don't live in a major city in the US, I will go on record and make the assumption that you probably aren't open to other ethnicities. You probably don't have a Thai restaurant down the street, you probably haven't seen an Indian (Of the nation India or middle Eastern) in person, and you may or may not even have a real ghetto within 10 miles complete with crackheads, bums (of all races), and hoes (also of all races). That is not to say that trailer parks of somekind often substitute for these in the south, I've been there. Chris Rock said it best, that a white man would not switch with a black man, no matter what. I happen to believe that's true. I can't golf in certain golf clubs because of old boy laws in some southern states, not even Tiger Woods can. I can't pick up and decide to live in Norway if I wanted to. I can't drive in LA without the possibility of being stopped by a cop, I can't drive through Beverly Hills for the same reason. I think I'll stop there. I think you just have a personal self-esteem issue, and it has little to do with the subject matter of this thread.

I suggest we get back on topic.

I think you're being a little unfair, again. Mynd Head expressed himself with a certain respect and your last sentence is a little rude. Plus, this has turned into an issue of blacks in the United States as a people, instead of in the media. Maybe we should start a topic in Cafe Toon Zone.

Also, I don't see the Levitra commercials aimed at minorities, and that's something you'll have to take up with the people marketing that.

Please elaborate on this. I don't quite get what you're saying.

 

[Mynd Hed]

Mumblety mumblety long string of vaguely condescending and insulting statements.

I'm sorry, did you even read my post? Like the part where I said that I'm not criticizing the fact that this goes on? Where did I ever say that I take offense to Dave Chapelle? Actually, I think he's hilarious. You are making a heck of a lot out of an off-hand example that was only tangentially related to my main point-- in fact, you seem downright defensive about it and quick to criticize and impugn me as an enemy of free speech and a racist. I resent the assumptions you make about me, the place I live, and my views as a white man. I have been nothing but respectful to you and everyone in this thread, and this is how you respond?

I think that getting back on topic is a good idea. Now, if you have anything to say about my main point-- that one can have valid insights about a particular ethnicity not despite but because of the fact that they do not belong to that ethnicity-- I would love to hear them.

 

[GL2k2]

I'm sorry, did you even read my post? Like the part where I said that I'm not criticizing the fact that this goes on? Where did I ever say that I take offense to Dave Chapelle? Actually, I think he's hilarious. You are making a heck of a lot out of an off-hand example that was only tangentially related to my main point-- in fact, you seem downright defensive about it and quick to criticize and impugn me as an enemy of free speech and a racist. I resent the assumptions you make about me, the place I live, and my views as a white man. I have been nothing but respectful to you and everyone in this thread, and this is how you respond?

I think that getting back on topic is a good idea. Now, if you have anything to say about my main point-- that one can have valid insights about a particular ethnicity not despite but because of the fact that they do not belong to that ethnicity-- I would love to hear them.

I read your entire post, but I like to believe when someone mentions something, they mean it. I'm reading between the lines. I'm not being defensive, I do take offense to white males feeling sorry for themselves. That's comedic to me. You should make a movie about that one. I'm not an enemy of free speech, but I guess the moderators are, but I think if someone is going to say something; back it up validly. And I don't think anyone born in America is not a racist, if they say they are not, they're lying through their teeth. Get a couple from each race who are Americans on a desert island and we'll see what happens. Race is a factor in this country and always will be, get over it. And with that I apologize for sounding like I am actually trying to hang you up with your words, but I think we need to move on with the topic. The fact of the matter is, I don't think you justified what being a white male and seeing Black superheroes and in media have anything in common.

Please elaborate on this. I don't quite get what you're saying.

The commericals for Enzyte and Levitra target a white male audience for "personal male growth". Mynd Hed mentioned that there were jokes about penial size in the media, I just gave him an example, I don't see that coming from minorities.

 

[Nick K.]

I read your entire post, but I like to believe when someone mentions something, they mean it. I'm reading between the lines. I'm not being defensive, I do take offense to white males feeling sorry for themselves. That's comedic to me. You should make a movie about that one. I'm not an enemy of free speech, but I guess the moderators are, but I think if someone is going to say something; back it up validly. And I don't think anyone born in America is not a racist, if they say they are not, they're lying through their teeth. Get a couple from each race who are Americans on a desert island and we'll see what happens. Race is a factor in this country and always will be, get over it. And with that I apologize for sounding like I am actually trying to hang you up with your words, but I think we need to move on with the topic. The fact of the matter is, I don't think you justified what being a white male and seeing Black superheroes and in media have anything in common.

I still don't think you read Mynd Hed's post.

my main point-- that one can have valid insights about a particular ethnicity not despite but because of the fact that they do not belong to that ethnicity

The commericals for Enzyte and Levitra target a white male audience for "personal male growth". Mynd Hed mentioned that there were jokes about penial size in the media, I just gave him an example, I don't see that coming from minorities.

So are you saying because white people appear in the commercial that it is targeted at white men?

 

[GL2k2]

I still don't think you read Mynd Hed's post.





So are you saying because white people appear in the commercial that it is targeted at white men?

Let's be clear here, everything is targeted at whites. Blacks only make up 12% of the population, do the math. The M&M's is targeted at whites. If you take up marketing and advertising in college, you will find discussions on this. And it's all very true. If you don't want to believe it, don't.