Why Black Super Heroes Succeed- and Fail

[Web Head]

I read your entire post, but I like to believe when someone mentions something, they mean it. I'm reading between the lines. I'm not being defensive, I do take offense to white males feeling sorry for themselves. That's comedic to me. You should make a movie about that one.

So you're saying that it's alright for a black man to take issue with what he feels is an inadequate or incorrect portrayal of his race but it's wrong for a white man to do so? I feel that this was a rather flippant remark to Mynd Hed's offhand corollary to his main point.

I think the general undercurrent to the above quote is a common feeling throughout much (but by no means all) of today's media. This thread has sparked some interesting discussion about African American portrayal in today's media by focusing on comic books and their movie adaptations.

How is it that pointing out pitfalls in the media's coverage of black culture (i.e. characters locked into cliched stereotypes, lack of creative opportunity for black writers/directors and the "token" minority roles seen in many movies) is acceptable, but to do so for white culture is "feeling sorry for ourselves."

I'm not going to sit here playing a violin or anything because this isn't anything that really offends me as the white, middle-class, Republican male that I am. I just think in a thread that has talked about improper coverage of blacks, hispanics, asians and other racial/ethnic groups it's not right to completely disregard the concerns of another group.

And to Mynd's point, I agree that race is not a major factor in the proper potrayal of a certain ethnic group. Artistic talent, dedication to the subject matter, and thorough research are the main factors.

 

[GL2k2]

I've said what I had to say about the subject. Anything else, PM me. Maybe I'll respond.

 

[Nick K.]

Let's be clear here, everything is targeted at whites. Blacks only make up 12% of the population, do the math. The M&M's is targeted at whites. If you take up marketing and advertising in college, you will find discussions on this. And it's all very true. If you don't want to believe it, don't.

How are M & M's targeted at whites? How is every thing targeted at whites? i don't understand what point you're trying to make by this?

 

[Mynd Hed]

I read your entire post, but I like to believe when someone mentions something, they mean it. I'm reading between the lines.

You're not reading between the lines, you're reading things into my statements that I never said and never meant, and I'd appreciate it if you'd quit. If you have something to say about the things I've said, by all means, make your comments. But if all you can do is take exception to things that you imagine that I think, but which I never in fact expressed, then we are not going to have a productive discussion.

I'm not being defensive, I do take offense to white males feeling sorry for themselves. That's comedic to me. You should make a movie about that one.

Excuse me, but WHERE exactly did I say I feel sorry for myself? Where did I say that the bias white people have to deal with is anywhere near as bad as what most other ethnicities in this country have to deal with? Because it's not-- that's something we can all agree on. All I said is that it EXISTS.

And I don't think anyone born in America is not a racist, if they say they are not, they're lying through their teeth.

*spends a moment sifting through the double negatives to see what you're getting at here*

Well, I guess it all depends on how you define the word "racist." If by that you mean anyone who has any degree of bias, however small, for or against any race, then I guess I'd have to agree with you-- humans are imperfect, and no matter how tolerant and fair-minded a person tries to be, it is inevitable that they occasionally make faulty judgements about people based on preconceived notions associated with their surface qualities, which include (among other things) race, gender, religion, having an accent, etc.
But if you use the word "racist" in the context in which it is normally understood, to mean someone who has an abnormal degree of bias and who lets that bias unduly affect their judgement, I think that the majority of Americans-- and people worldwide, for that matter-- are not racist.
In any case, it's all a matter of degree-- most everyone is at least a little racist, but I don't think many people are very racist.

The commericals for Enzyte and Levitra target a white male audience for "personal male growth". Mynd Hed mentioned that there were jokes about penial size in the media, I just gave him an example, I don't see that coming from minorities.

I never mentioned penis size as a matter for joking-- it is a topic that occasionally comes up in relation to race, but I haven't brought it up in this thread. Perhaps you're confusing me with someone else, or thinking of a different thread in which the topic came up.

 

[Chris Wood]

White-male bashing in media?

Hmmmm, perhaps you can give some examples. I will help you, white-males bashing their own people cause they want them to wake up like on Comedy Central's Daily Show or some stupid comedians doing it all the time because they get laughs for telling the truth. So, help me out a little more. I am not starting an argument, but I really am trying to see this side of the conversation.

This is a tangent, but it does happen in the entertainment industry here and there. Here's a quick example from a review of Captain Planet:

Back at the Ship, which is how I’ll refer to the Planeteer’s flying whatsit, the youths find that their craft has been damaged. Kwame notes that they will only be able to fix it with Clash’s help. Wheeler argues against this course, because he’s the group’s Dumb White Guy Who Always Says and Does the Wrong Thing. As usual, he’s outvoted by his wiser minority teammates.

 

[Redi]

This is a tangent, but it does happen in the entertainment industry here and there. Here's a quick example from a review of Captain Planet:

...a review of Captain Planet? That's your shining example of white male bashing in the mostly white male dominated media?

 

[Mynd Hed]

...a review of Captain Planet? That's your shining example of white male bashing in the mostly white male dominated media?

It's not the review that's telling, it's the fact that the reviewer is right-- Wheeler WAS the stereotypical dumb white guy in that show, and this is a children's show, and not just any children's show, but the one children's show among all children's shows that went WAAAAAY out of its way to be politically correct and non-controversial to the point of mind-numbingness. What are we teaching our children? That all peoples must be treated with the utmost respect and sensitivity, except white males-- it's okay to act any old way toward them, because there are so many of them and so many of their ancestors were such jerks.

 

[randomguy]

I think making Nick Fury black is pretty cool, myself.

Me too! He's an obvious doppleganger for Samuel L. Jackson, but he's probably the coolest character in the Ultimate Universe.

You know, I think a Green Lantern movie with John Stewart that used the Hal Jordan origin would be just fine. Hell, I think it'd probably be pretty refreshing. But that's just my take.

 

[Nick K.]

Me too! He's an obvious doppleganger for Samuel L. Jackson, but he's probably the coolest character in the Ultimate Universe.

You know, I think a Green Lantern movie with John Stewart that used the Hal Jordan origin would be just fine. Hell, I think it'd probably be pretty refreshing. But that's just my take.

Hal Jordan's origin on John Stewart is just as bad as his origin on Kyle Rayner in the DCAU. It shouldn't happen.

 

[randomguy]

Hal Jordan's origin on John Stewart is just as bad as his origin on Kyle Rayner in the DCAU. It shouldn't happen.

I don't see why it matters. That Abin Sur origin could happen to anybody. It's not one of the origin stories which is dependent on a hero's personality (unlike, say, Peter Parker's or Bruce Wayne's). It doesn't diminish things in any way that I can conceive to have John Stewart get the ring instead of Hal.

 

[Nick K.]

I don't see why it matters. That Abin Sur origin could happen to anybody. It's not one of the origin stories which is dependent on a hero's personality (unlike, say, Peter Parker's or Bruce Wayne's). It doesn't diminish things in any way that I can conceive to have John Stewart get the ring instead of Hal.

It's a matter of history I guess. For myself, Hal is GL. So, if they had a movie I'd want him. KR & JS appearing in the movie or in the sequel or being main characters in the sequel would be all right as long as we got Hal Jordan... DC's best GL, IMO.

 

[randomguy]

It's a matter of history I guess. For myself, Hal is GL. So, if they had a movie I'd want him. KR & JS appearing in the movie or in the sequel or being main characters in the sequel would be all right as long as we got Hal Jordan... DC's best GL, IMO.

See, I've never considered Hal an important part of the equation. I think a big part of that is inherent in the Green Lantern concept itself. The ring, the corps, the guardians, etc., are the most important parts of the mythology in my mind. In fact, I think that's the beauty of the concept- it can take on new life in a variety of different ringbearers and species. It's very open. Who wears the ring is not as important to me as the ring itself, its purpose, its functionality, and its history.

 

[Nick K.]

See, I've never considered Hal an important part of the equation. I think a big part of that is inherent in the Green Lantern concept itself. The ring, the corps, the guardians, etc., are the most important parts of the mythology in my mind. In fact, I think that's the beauty of the concept- it can take on new life in a variety of different ringbearers and species. It's very open. Who wears the ring is not as important to me as the ring itself, its purpose, its functionality, and its history.

The ring isn't important if the character behind it is boring and bland. I care more about who the character is and how his experience with the ring goes.

 

[Who?]

It´s weird how Hal Jordan keeps showing up in all threads, is it some kind of monothemetic disfunction that all posters share?

Just kidding. People complained a lot about John Stewart on JL, and now I consider he one of the most interesting characters in DCAU, together with Shiera. So fans, no matter how annoying, can change their minds if presented with solid arguments (and characters).

 

[GL2k2]

It´s weird how Hal Jordan keeps showing up in all threads, is it some kind of monothemetic disfunction that all posters share?

Just kidding. People complained a lot about John Stewart on JL, and now I consider he one of the most interesting characters in DCAU, together with Shiera. So fans, no matter how annoying, can change their minds if presented with solid arguments (and characters).

In all fairness, I don't think Hal Jordan got enough coverage in his heyday. Just like Barry Allen didn't either, except for the memorable CBS series. But if someone were to mention Hal Jordan as the secret identity of Green Lantern, they would blink with incoherent wonder. Because now all we see nowadays is John Stewart on Cereal boxes, commercials, and Jack n The Box kids meals. So now Joe Schmo just thinks John Stewart is the green lantern, it's accepted like a costume redesign. The only people really upset about it are hardcore GL fans. I really don't know how to remedy today's audience to recognize Hal, but it is kinda sad. It would be like what Marvel did with Spider-Man with the whole clone storyline, except getting away with it.

I always felt they should do at least one episode of JL devoted to the origin of the ring. STAS "In Brightest Day" touched upon it and so did "In Blackest Night". But I feel this should go all the way back to Allen Scott to give some sort of explanation. Of course if a real serious film was done, they could do this too.

 

[staticblue]

It's a matter of history I guess. For myself, Hal is GL. So, if they had a movie I'd want him. KR & JS appearing in the movie or in the sequel or being main characters in the sequel would be all right as long as we got Hal Jordan... DC's best GL, IMO.

So how would you feel if a GL trilogy came out starring Jonh, but Hal was an underlying focus throughout the entire series (and starred in part 3) and kyle was a supporting character. just curious, I write scripts and Ive writtine a GL one

 

[Pyro]

I think the problem with black superheroes, put most plainly, is because they are black. Because the hero is of color, usually people (readers and even creators) will look at him or her as black character above all else and the character will probably end up labeled as too stereotypical or not black enough. Maybe the lack of prominent black heroes is the cause of this. Maybe there aren't enough blacks behind comics or reading them. Maybe there should be more black heroes so that instead of focusing on skin color they could eventually be looked at for character, which I'm seeing more and more in comics currently, so I think we're headed in the right direction. Just my views on the topic.
Incidentally, did anyone notice that the episode titled "In Brightest Day" featured a white GL, while "In Blackest Night" featured a black one?
(I'm just being silly, I know race was probably not the reason for the titles in case anyone takes that offensively)

 

[Nick K.]

So how would you feel if a GL trilogy came out starring Jonh, but Hal was an underlying focus throughout the entire series (and starred in part 3) and kyle was a supporting character. just curious, I write scripts and Ive writtine a GL one

Sounds good to me, though, I might rather see each get the spotlight in separate movies. The first movie dedicated to Hal, the second to John, the third to Kyle.... etc. Throw in other members in a supporting role too.

 

[Frank White]

The ring isn't important if the character behind it is boring and bland.

You're talking about Hal right?

 

[Nick K.]

You're talking about Hal right?

No. And if you consider Hal Jordan boring then I ask you how he has become the most popular GL in Comics and why he was GL for so long if he was so boring... huh?