What Marvel Cartoon do you want to see?

[ESE150]

I love how you call this show "predictable" and say it only follows a villain-of-the-week method.

...So you didn't see Peter defeating the villain at the end of each ep coming?

And just to prove a point, I'm going to explain how wrong this part of your post is:
SSM has just as tight a continuity, if not more organized of one, as the 90's series.

You're right. You sure proved me wrong by NOT giving a single argument to back up you claim.

Clearly, you aren't even PAYING ATTENTION to those "random events", since those are events that advance the overall plot of the series and aren't just there to affect a single episode.

Right. I'm sure that having Spidey battle the bad guy 2-4 times in the same episode under the same circumstances does advance the plot. So does having Gwen get mad at Peter and not talk to him, just to have them reconciliate 3 episodes later. And I'm sure that the pointless scenes with Flash do advance the plot, too.

Again, every episode of SSM adds something to the storyline and the links between SSM's episodes seem natural (plus, there has been a few clever moments).

Natural? Come on. You think that the fact that ALL of the villains have had history together before getting superpowers (and remember, this is set in NEW YORK) is believable?

And, as far as I can tell, the only villain origin that felt "forced" was Electro's.

Read above.

I love how you forgot during this part that the 90's show was clearly intended to appeal to younger kids as well.

Children's cartoons usually don't use tight continuity. Well, they do at times, but their continuity isn't as bold. SpideyTAS even had an entire season dealing with Spidey's unstable powers, which required you to watch most episodes to understand the story.

Also Semper stated in a interview that the show was supposed to be appealing to kids AND adults.

The art style is because they simply CANNOT AFFORD the kind of realistic style that you want. If you really want it for this series, go donate a few million dollars to Marvel.

Now you're just making stuff up, aren't you? SpideyTAS was a low-budget cartoon because Marvel was going into bankrupcy when the show was being produced. Now? Marvel is more profitable than ever, thanks to the movies.
And the art style has NOTHING to do with budget.

And really, a cartoony animation style doesn't eliminate the possibility of mature themes.

No, but it makes it hard take serious the stories.
And I have yet to see anything implying that this show is supposed to appeal to adults, rather than just kids.

Teen Titans had a cartoony animation style, and it had incredibly dark episodes amongst the kiddy ones.

Funny you mention Teen Titans, considering that the producers stated that it was intended to appeal young kids.
Here's the quote:

Justice League is awesome and awesome Samurai Jack is and we buy a lot of anime shows that're great, but those shows really are directed more towards the nine to fourteen age group and the six and seven and eight year olds, were not gelling with the Justice League and some of the more of the fanboy shows...The main mission was making a good superhero show for kids. Now if the fanboys happen to like the Teen Titans also, that's great, but that was not our mission.

Overall, I feel like you didn't even watch past the first two episodes.

Oh, but I did.

 

[GregX]

I see nothing about how Semper's trash was supposed to appeal to both kids and adults.

Greg Weisman has said in interviews his show is designed to appeal to both.

 

[ESE150]

I see nothing about how Semper's trash was supposed to appeal to both kids and adults.

Greg Weisman has said in interviews his show is designed to appeal to both.

Children's cartoons usually don't use tight continuity. Well, they do at times, but their continuity isn't as bold. SpideyTAS even had an entire season dealing with Spidey's unstable powers, which required you to watch most episodes to understand the story.

And funny that someone who thinks SSM could be considered decent calls SpideyTAS crap.

 

[GregX]

And funny that someone who thinks SSM could be considered decent calls SpideyTAS crap.

Because it was crap...

- The Hobgoblin before the Green Goblin.
- Horrendous voice acting, especially Mary Jane.
- 90% of the series being stock footage.
- No Gwen Stacy.
- No Betty Brant.
- Electro being the Red Skull's son.
- Lame dimensional portals!
- Norman Osborn being the Kingpin's whiny *****.
- Doc Ock being Kingpin's butt monkey.
- Tombstone's Joker rip-off origin.
- Crappy CGI backgrounds.
- Super Soldier Black Cat.
- Anna Watson being a mean old harpy.
- Giant "Uber Cool" Goblin Glider that just so happened to be a $30 toy on the shelves.
- Dormmamu and Morbius being way too prominent.
- Madame Web with crazy Beyonder powers.
- That lame, lame, LAME series finale.
- Hydro Mary Jane!
- Bad forced angst!
- Stupid lame portrayal of vampirism!
- No proper resolution at the end, at all!
- No Sandman!
- Overabundance of guest stars!

 

[tedcassidy]

I would like to see a good Avengers series from the list you've given, but the animated series that I really want to see, is The Imperial Guard!!!!!!!!!

 

[Antiyonder]

...So you didn't see Peter defeating the villain at the end of each ep coming?

There's more to it than just Spider-Man fighting the villains. Try The Big Man revealed as Tombstone or Peter being fired from his job with The Conners.

Right. I'm sure that having Spidey battle the bad guy 2-4 times in the same episode under the same circumstances does advance the plot. So does having Gwen get mad at Peter and not talk to him, just to have them reconciliate 3 episodes later. And I'm sure that the pointless scenes with Flash do advance the plot, too.

There's more to it than what you described. If you're truly interested in watching it as a storyline than as individual stories, then you should keep watching then at least to the end of the season. But here's what I got to show that the show has some plots other than the ones you mention (with call backs to the previous episodes in bold and underlined):

Episode rundowns
1.
- Aside from the character introductions, Peter gets a job working for Curt Connors.
- The Big Man's crew confirms the existence of the individual known as Spider-Man.
- Peter is in the process of looking for a job that pays and at the end of the episode is given some a curfew to follow since he's obviously been coming home late.
- Oh and Curt's working on something mysterious.

2.
- As we see, Peter is now going by his curfew.
- Martha notices the serum that Curt's using.
- Liz Allen is tutored by Pete, but rejects him at the end of the episode (with some regret).
- Plus, Peter takes the first of a few failed photo attempts.

3.
- We see the significance of the serum Curt's using.
- Plus Peter's curfew is tighted by an hour.
- Yet another failed photo attempt by Peter early in the episode.
- Peter takes the photos of The Lizard which get Gwen and Eddie mad.
- Plus he considers getting rid of his powers only to have a change of heart (but is keeping the cure).

4.
- Eddie's still sore with Peter due to The Lizard photos.
- Plus, he gets Gwen even more upset as well as Harry (who is told by Norman to man up at the end of the episode).
- Montana attempts to get revenge under the guise of The Shocker.
- Peter gets some photos sold at the Bugle after many failed attempt, due to the Lizard photo from the previous episode.
- Norman is approached for the purpose of creating some super criminals to distract Spider-Man from The Big Man's activities (Plus Spider-Man's saving Norman's life in episode 1 is referenced here).
- Peter is able to help Aunt May in paying some bills.

5.
- The Fall Formal is around the corner.
- Aunt May reinstates Peter's original curfew and makes her first attempt at setting Peter up with Mary Jane.
- Harry starts to take Norman's advice and man up.
- We are even treated to domestic family life, Osborn Style.
- Due to Sandman's brief incompetence, Spidey hears a bit about The Big Man.
- Gwen starts to soften up around the end and forgive Peter for his actions from the previous episodes.


So far we have quite a bit of continuing plot points from episode to episode and more than just Spider-Man fighting the villain of the week.

 

[ESE150]

- The Hobgoblin before the Green Goblin.
And it worked as set-up for the GG. Plus, who want the cartoons to be identical to the comics?

- Horrendous voice acting, especially Mary Jane.
- Crappy CGI backgrounds.
And yet these factors weren't as harmful as much as the terrible SSM art style.

- No Gwen Stacy.
I would rather her to not be used than to have her turned into a Debra rip-off.

- No Betty Brant.
So?

- Electro being the Red Skull's son.
A Electro who WASN'T Max Dillon.

- 90% of the series being stock footage.
90%? Yeah, right.

- Norman Osborn being the Kingpin's whiny *****.
Until he became the GG.

- Doc Ock being Kingpin's butt monkey.
No, he wasn't.

- Tombstone's Joker rip-off origin.
Who cares?

- Super Soldier Black Cat.
And I would take that over her luck-based powers from the comics any day of the week.

- Anna Watson being a mean old harpy.
At least she wasn't a major character. SSM sinned worse by turning Gwen into Debra >.<

- Giant "Uber Cool" Goblin Glider that just so happened to be a $30 toy on the shelves.
But the GG didn't look like he was drawn by a 8 years old kid, so who cares about the stupid glider?

- Hydro Mary Jane!
Don't remind me...

- Dormmamu and Morbius being way too prominent.
Dormmamu = Just 2 appearances.
Morbius = Cool guy, just crappy design.

- Bad forced angst!
Where?

- No Sandman!
Like the SSM Sandman was such a interesting character.

- Lame dimensional portals!
- Stupid lame portrayal of vampirism!
True. ****ing network.

- Overabundance of guest stars!
Come on. They were cool!

- No proper resolution at the end, at all!
How?

There's more to it than what you described. If you're truly interested in watching it as a storyline than as individual stories, then you should keep watching then at least to the end of the season. But here's what I got to show that the show has some plots other than the ones you mention (with call backs to the previous episodes in bold and underlined):

Episode rundowns
1.
- Aside from the character introductions, Peter gets a job working for Curt Connors.
- The Big Man's crew confirms the existence of the individual known as Spider-Man.
- Peter is in the process of looking for a job that pays and at the end of the episode is given some a curfew to follow since he's obviously been coming home late.
- Oh and Curt's working on something mysterious.

2.
- As we see, Peter is now going by his curfew.
- Martha notices the serum that Curt's using.
- Liz Allen is tutored by Pete, but rejects him at the end of the episode (with some regret).
- Plus, Peter takes the first of a few failed photo attempts.

3.
- We see the significance of the serum Curt's using.
- Plus Peter's curfew is tighted by an hour.
- Yet another failed photo attempt by Peter early in the episode.
- Peter takes the photos of The Lizard which get Gwen and Eddie mad.
- Plus he considers getting rid of his powers only to have a change of heart (but is keeping the cure).

4.
- Eddie's still sore with Peter due to The Lizard photos.
- Plus, he gets Gwen even more upset as well as Harry (who is told by Norman to man up at the end of the episode).
- Montana attempts to get revenge under the guise of The Shocker.
- Peter gets some photos sold at the Bugle after many failed attempt, due to the Lizard photo from the previous episode.
- Norman is approached for the purpose of creating some super criminals to distract Spider-Man from The Big Man's activities (Plus Spider-Man's saving Norman's life in episode 1 is referenced here).
- Peter is able to help Aunt May in paying some bills.

5.
- The Fall Formal is around the corner.
- Aunt May reinstates Peter's original curfew and makes her first attempt at setting Peter up with Mary Jane.
- Harry starts to take Norman's advice and man up.
- We are even treated to domestic family life, Osborn Style.
- Due to Sandman's brief incompetence, Spidey hears a bit about The Big Man.
- Gwen starts to soften up around the end and forgive Peter for his actions from the previous episodes.


So far we have quite a bit of continuing plot points from episode to episode and more than just Spider-Man fighting the villain of the week.

Like I said, bits like those were the parts that I enjoyed. The problem is that there should be more than that: the main plot of each episode should be interesting, too. I wish they used less time in fights and spent more time in making the villains more three-dimentional.

I was think Shocker and Sandman, but since you bring it up, I don't see how The Vulture is connected to those three.

I meant the Vulture's connection to the GG.

And so does SSM, again, look at the post (What Marvel Cartoons do you want to see?). Were you expecting them to be spelt out to you or were you looking for subtle connections?

I meant bolder continuity, like SpideyTAS seasons 2-4 and X-Men Evolution seasons 3-4. In other words, I meant that I don't want every ep using the villain of the week method.

Edit: Added Antiyonder's quotes from the other thread.

 

[Antiyonder]

- Crappy CGI backgrounds.
And yet these factors weren't as harmful as much as the terrible SSM art style.

Again, feel free to donate a couple billion dollars, then complain about the art style. The movement animates better than the previous series.

- No Gwen Stacy.
I would rather her to not be used than to have her turned into a Debra rip-off.

For all we know, she'll become the beauty queen Gwen later in the series. Besides, Gwen doesn't just accept Peter's behavior and doesn't have a mental record (Both traits of Debra). Glasses and blond hair alone don't necessarily make her a Debra rip-off.

Like I said, bits like those were the parts that I enjoyed. The problem is that there should be more than that: the main plot of each episode should be interesting, too.

Depends on your expectations. Perhaps if you would view the show by itself and without expectations of it being like JLU, you might have enjoyed this better.

I wish they used less time in fights and spent more time in making the villains more three-dimentional.

Then you would be better off watching Days Of Our Lives or Dallas. Supervillain fights are part of the Spider-Man package, especially if it's a show on KidsWB.

As for villains that are three-dimensional, each antagonist so far has had a different motive for their actions, thus they aren't as interchangable as you think:

Vulture: Wants to force Norman into admitting his theft and to deliver an apology.

Electro: He doesn't revert to crime at all, but merely shows rage for not being able to enjoy his life due to the condition he was left in.

The Lizard: He's a mindless beast, thus not really the criminal type. Just vicious.

The Shocker/Montana: Honoring his responsibilities and obligations to The Big Man.

Sandman: Simply wants wealth and power. Surprisingly he choses not to pursue revenge.


Now perhaps if all of the villains mentioned above had the same mindset, you'd have a valid arguement that they aren't three dimensional.

 

[DawnWarrior]

I would love to join you guys in this discussion of TAS vs. SSM, but there's already a thread for that here: http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=208536. But since we're having so much fun here... just a couple quick additions:

- Electro being the Red Skull's son.
A Electro who WASN'T Max Dillon.
- Super Soldier Black Cat.
And I would take that over her luck-based powers from the comics any day of the week.

Neither of those portrayals really captured the essence of those characters. Black Cat suddenly had an origin fitting for Black Widow, and Electro was unrecognizable.

- The Hobgoblin before the Green Goblin.
And it worked as set-up for the GG. Plus, who want the cartoons to be identical to the comics?

Fair enough, but it's still irksome, since Green Goblin is a much more iconic Spidey villain, but Hobgoblin made it on first since he was more popular at that moment.

Now as I try to steer us back on topic:

I would like to see a good Avengers series from the list you've given, but the animated series that I really want to see, is The Imperial Guard!!!!!!!!!

Actually, we kind of already have that show:

Daredevil and Punisher-their respective movies tanked, so nobody's interested in giving them shows. (Plus, you'd never get Punisher past the PTA, unless you'd be willing to accept a Punisher who fires laser pistols and doesn't kill.)

They are working on the Punisher: War Journal movie as a franchise reboot, so don't count him out just yet. You make a good point, though; I wonder if Punisher wouldn't work better in prime time as a live-action series.

I still say a "Marvel Universe" anthology show would be a great way of doing backdoor pilots for a lot of marvel concepts... even a 13-episode season could go a long way... with hopefully more in store..

Justice League: Unlimited kind of became that series for DC. Although no actual backdoor pilots went anywhere, they could have easily spun characters like The Question, Green Arrow, Booster Gold and others into their own shows. An Avengers series, if successful enough, could be transformed into a kind of anthology series spotlighting characters and teams from across the MU like the Defenders, the New Warriors, Nick Fury & SHIELD, the Guardians of the Galaxy, Dr. Strange, the Runaways, Ghost Rider, the Eternals, Excalibur, Alpha Flight, the list goes on.

 

[Spider-Man]

To try and get this thread back on-topic, I think if there's any hero who could really excel in animation it would be Daredevil. Of course they'd have to actually approach him faithfully. With the upcoming Wolverine & The X-Men and Iron Man cartoons looking good I think a good solid Daredevil cartoon could be done. I suppose if they are worried about making it relatable to a younger audience, they could de-age Daredevil and have him be at the start of his career and maybe not just a lawyer yet.

 

[Miyamoto Musashi]

Daredevil and Punisher-their respective movies tanked, so nobody's interested in giving them shows. (Plus, you'd never get Punisher past the PTA, unless you'd be willing to accept a Punisher who fires laser pistols and doesn't kill.)

DareDevil: They can do him an animated series, Spawn's movie and animated series were released in the same year. Movie had a hard fall. HBO animated show was very good. In short: don't say because the film was bad the cartoon is going to be bad as well.

Punisher: I did say a DTV, so no problem in handing him a bullet shooting gun or a rocket launcher. I really liked his movie by the way

 

[W.C.Reaf]

DareDevil: They can do him an animated series, Spawn's movie and animated series were released in the same year. Movie had a hard fall. HBO animated show was very good. In short: don't say because the film was bad the cartoon is going to be bad as well.

Punisher: I did say a DTV, so no problem in handing him a bullet shooting gun or a rocket launcher. I really liked his movie by the way

He didn't say the shows would be bad, just that no business would be interested in them because of the fact that they tanked.

 

[ESE150]

Again, feel free to donate a couple billion dollars, then complain about the art style. The movement animates better than the previous series.

To me, designs and art style are more important than animation. If your priorities are different, then we will have to agree to disagree.

For all we know, she'll become the beauty queen Gwen later in the series.

Alright. If that happens, then this version of Gwen will be redeemed to me.

Depends on your expectations. Perhaps if you would view the show by itself and without expectations of it being like JLU, you might have enjoyed this better.

I didn't expect the story to be the same quality as JLU. I was just expecting that they would make the villains interesting.

Then you would be better off watching Days Of Our Lives or Dallas. Supervillain fights are part of the Spider-Man package, especially if it's a show on KidsWB.

SpideyTAS had fights and still managed to tell more story.

As for villains that are three-dimensional, each antagonist so far has had a different motive for their actions, thus they aren't as interchangable as you think:

Vulture: Wants to force Norman into admitting his theft and to deliver an apology.

Electro: He doesn't revert to crime at all, but merely shows rage for not being able to enjoy his life due to the condition he was left in.

The Lizard: He's a mindless beast, thus not really the criminal type. Just vicious.

The Shocker/Montana: Honoring his responsibilities and obligations to The Big Man.

Sandman: Simply wants wealth and power. Surprisingly he choses not to pursue revenge.


Now perhaps if all of the villains mentioned above had the same mindset, you'd have a valid arguement that they aren't three dimensional.

By three-dimentional I meant I wanted them to be more realistic and interesting. Explanation:

The Vulture: It didn't seem realistic to me that he became a supervillain in order to force Norman to confess that he stole his technology, but then tried to kill him the first time he (Norman) refused.

Electro: He was interesting at first, but he became a insane villain with no purpose at the end.

The Lizard: I enjoyed the Lizard, but there wasn't anything new that we hadn't seen before.

The Shocker: The fact he was a pawn to another villain made him boring. I wouldn't have a problem with that if only they hadn't given him so much screentime. I was ok with him being a pawn in The Alien Costume just because he was a secondary villain in that story.

Sandman: I found him to be pretty dull due to obvious resons.

Neither of those portrayals really captured the essence of those characters. Black Cat suddenly had an origin fitting for Black Widow, and Electro was unrecognizable.

Very well. You don't have to like their portrayals, in the same way as I don't have to like the (current) portrayal of Gwen in SSM.



Now, for the sake of the topic, I suggest we continue here: http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=210702

 

[Silverstar]

Originally Posted by spidey_mon
DareDevil: They can do him an animated series, Spawn's movie and animated series were released in the same year. Movie had a hard fall. HBO animated show was very good. In short: don't say because the film was bad the cartoon is going to be bad as well.

Punisher: I did say a DTV, so no problem in handing him a bullet shooting gun or a rocket launcher. I really liked his movie by the way

He didn't say the shows would be bad, just that no business would be interested in them because of the fact that they tanked.

Ah, you beat me to it!

Yes, that was my point: I wasn't saying that a Daredevil or Punisher series or DTV would be bad because of the lukewarm reception their respective movies received, but that because of the fact that their films didn't strike box office gold, no company would be interested in giving either character a spotlight DTV or TV show in the first place. TV and movie execs want to keep their fat bank accounts, swanky mansions, expensive sports cars and cushy jobs, so as such they aren't about to risk potentially losing their collective shirts by sinking money into a property that has proven itself to not be successful in the past. They're only going to build a show around a character that they know is going to make them money. That's just the nature of the biz.

 

[Hypestyle]

...Daredevil & the Marvel Knights.. ah..
including Power Man; Iron Fist; Misty & Colleen; Cloak & Dagger; Shang Chi...

 

[Max]

Instead of having another X-Men cartoon where Wolverine takes the lead role (Wolverine and the X-Men) I would rather have an animated series set around Wolverine and his quest to find more about his past. I think Wolverine has enough popularity to have his own animated series and there's a lot to explore about his past. His lonely wolf personality and deep background story makes him the perfect X-Man to have his own cartoons series.

With the Wolverine live-action movie coming up in 2009 this series could really get the attention of the people.

 

[tedcassidy]

I would love to join you guys in this discussion of TAS vs. SSM, but there's already a thread for that here: http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=208536. But since we're having so much fun here... just a couple quick additions:


Neither of those portrayals really captured the essence of those characters. Black Cat suddenly had an origin fitting for Black Widow, and Electro was unrecognizable.

Fair enough, but it's still irksome, since Green Goblin is a much more iconic Spidey villain, but Hobgoblin made it on first since he was more popular at that moment.

Now as I try to steer us back on topic:

Actually, we kind of already have that show:

They are working on the Punisher: War Journal movie as a franchise reboot, so don't count him out just yet. You make a good point, though; I wonder if Punisher wouldn't work better in prime time as a live-action series.


Justice League: Unlimited kind of became that series for DC. Although no actual backdoor pilots went anywhere, they could have easily spun characters like The Question, Green Arrow, Booster Gold and others into their own shows. An Avengers series, if successful enough, could be transformed into a kind of anthology series spotlighting characters and teams from across the MU like the Defenders, the New Warriors, Nick Fury & SHIELD, the Guardians of the Galaxy, Dr. Strange, the Runaways, Ghost Rider, the Eternals, Excalibur, Alpha Flight, the list goes on.

Yeah, I wish it was still on!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So, now that it's not, it would be awesome if they did an Imperial Guard series!!!! There are a lot of great untold origins, back stories, cosmic villains, and cosmos spanning stories to be told! IMPERIAL GUARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[sdp]

DareDevil definitely, I'm actually surprised he hasn't gotten one yet. Another Hulk series could be interesting.

I can't see an Avengers cartoon work, especially if the DTVs were so dissapointing. Also Captain America is too cheesy to work nowadays unless its a very dark series where Caps is dissapointed in todays world. Leave Captain America for a guest appearance in other cartoons,.

 

[Goldstar!]

I can't see an Avengers cartoon work, especially if the DTVs were so dissapointing. Also Captain America is too cheesy to work nowadays unless its a very dark series where Caps is dissapointed in todays world. Leave Captain America for a guest appearance in other cartoons,.

No, Captain America does not need to become dark and edgy. Cheesy though Cap may be, that's what fans like about him. Every super hero doesn't have to be transformed into a dark angry brooding tormented badass in order to be successful. A little light hearted optimism once in a while can be fun also.

 

[capfan1]

A long overdue captain america series would be awesome!As would daredevil and an avengers series.How is cap cheesy?He is the ultimate hero.You can say the same about the new spidey show and the last fantastic four show which has to be the worst of any superhero series ever!